Angela Kelly: Hello, Empowered Principals. Welcome to episode 456. 

Welcome to The Empowered Principal® Podcast, a not-so-typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host, certified life coach Angela Kelly. 

Well, hello, my Empowered Principals. Happy Tuesday. Welcome to the podcast. I have another wonderful conversation ahead for you today, and what I love about this conversation with Lindsay Whorton is that this is truly a collaborative conversation. This is not me interviewing somebody; this is Lindsay and I having a conversation around educational leadership.

She’s sharing the work that she’s doing in Texas with the Holdsworth Center, and we are all here on this podcast and as people out in the world. And you know, when I listen to podcasts, sometimes you forget these are real human beings out there doing the work, getting their hands dirty, working to support school leaders, working to enhance the quality of our experience as school leaders, and in the work that we do. 

So, this entire episode is going to be about sharing ideas, sharing concepts, strategies, tips, ideas on what is being implemented by real humans in real time, and sharing that so that if you are in Portland or you’re in New York or you’re in California or you’re over in, you know, the Midwest somewhere, you can listen to what’s going on around the country and what people are working on and really explore these ideas and see what would work for your district or your area of expertise that you’re working in. So, Lindsay, thank you for being here. Thank you for taking the time to have this conversation.

Lindsay Whorton: Thanks so much for having me.

Angela Kelly: Yeah, I’m really excited about it. So, I’m going to turn it over to you. Introduce yourself, tell the listeners who you are, the story behind what you’re doing, and I would just love to hear all about the work that you are doing down in Texas right now.

Lindsay Whorton: Excellent. So, I’m going to do this a little out of order. I’m going to tell you, I’m going to introduce you to the Holdsworth Center first, then I’ll explain kind of who I am and how I came to be here. So, the Holdsworth Center is a nonprofit organization that was created in 2017 by a man named Charles Butt. If you are a Texan, that name will be very familiar to you because Charles, for most of his career, was leading one of Texas’s most beloved companies, HEB. But Charles always had a passion for the business, you know, which he followed in the footsteps of his dad, but he also always had a real heart for service and in particular for public education. 

And he had inherited that from his mom, and her maiden name was Holdsworth, so that’s who we’re named after. And she began her career as a teacher in the Hill Country of Texas and always instilled in Charles the sense that one, you have a responsibility, you know, when you are a leader in a field to pay it forward, to care for others, and two, that how we educate our kids is one of the most important things that we must get right if we’re going to have a strong country, if we’re going to have a strong state.

So, Charles has been a longtime champion of public education, and when I met him in 2015, he was sitting around feeling like he had not done enough to support public schools, which if you knew his background, it’s an amazing thing and one of the things I love about him. And he had gotten advice from a lot of people about what more he could do. You know, he had a foundation, he gave away money, he had created an organization to advocate for public schools. 

You know, he got some advice that a lot of us are familiar with: teachers are the very most important thing, and in a state as big as Texas, with 5.5 million students and 1200 school districts, there’s a lot of teachers. And so then, you know, folks said, and one of the most important things you can get right to help support teachers and effective instruction in every classroom is having a great principal. And that made a lot of sense to him leading a company that’s structured a lot like a school district, you know, central organization schools.

And so, he set off to say, “How could we create a place that really is about building great leaders and enhancing the leadership skills of the people working in our schools and districts?” And The Holdsworth Center was born almost 10 years ago. And we, over the last 10 years, have launched a number of programs, but what they all have in common is how do we find, develop, and encourage people who are leading our schools and districts today and will lead them tomorrow.

So, I met Charles almost 12 years ago in 2015 when he was starting to think about this, and at the time, what I thought I’d be doing at this point in my life would be being a high school teacher. It was my passion, you know, from an early age. I trained to be a teacher. I had gone off to grad school to study international education. I’d come to the conclusion that like the one thing we must do to have a great education system is really invest in our education workforce. 

And I met Charles, he had this vision, and kind of the rest is history. And so, I’ve been involved with Holdsworth from the beginning and I’ve been the president since 2019, and it’s just such an honor to get to spend all of your time thinking about how you build up and encourage the leaders in our schools.

Angela Kelly: Yeah. Oh, that is so wonderful. When you told me this story in the meet and greet, one, I was a little bit enamored because I love HEB. I have friends and family who live down in San Antonio area and they are big fans. But just the genuine love and interest for education, but from the standpoint of the bigger picture, for the greater good, right? This is, yes, it’s for us as the educators and for them as the students, but his, what’s driving his decision to support this organization and to support the enhancement of school leadership is really for the greater good of the state of Texas. 

And when the state of Texas does well, the nation does well. So, I love that his vision is so much bigger than just, “What’s in it for my kid or my grandkids?” right? It’s about, this is for all kids in this state. Obviously, that’s where you have to constrain and focus somewhere, but we can be a model for other states in the union. So, that’s wonderful.

So, tell us a little bit more specifically about the work that you’re doing through the center.

Lindsay Whorton: Yeah. So, when we got started in 2017, we started, education leadership is vast and then you add to that a geography that is vast. And so, we had to pick a place to start. And we started with a real focus on the principal. And we created a program called the Holdsworth Partnership. We worked with districts over many years to one, directly invest in the principals leading the schools today and their teams, and then two, to help the school district think about how they can build systems to really identify and develop future leaders in a sustainable way.

And those programs, when we talk about our programs, the mental model, you know, I would, we have a physical place. We have a campus. Right across from me, there’s like a hotel conference center, 180 rooms that are just beautiful and intended to convey to the educators who come and spend time with us about how important they are. And our programs tend to be pretty long and pretty intense. You know, so, those first programs were around 24 months. It was a principal and members of their team. 

Over the 24 months, they would come to campus eight to 10 times for a few days. So, kind of like, you know, an executive master’s degree. People have told us they should get master’s degrees for what we require them to do, but they come here, they are challenged and given new ways of thinking about their work as leaders, the work of serving students well, and they always leave with things to go back and do and put into practice. And it’s one of the reasons we love working with sitting leaders because you can really tackle real work together.

But so that’s kind of a picture of how we got started. And then as we’ve grown our capabilities, we’ve continued to add more efforts to serve leaders across the state. So, since 2021, we’ve had a real focus on identifying and developing future superintendents and supporting brand new superintendents when they step into that role. So, really proud of those leaders and the outcomes they’re achieving for kids. 

And then we’ve got a new focus going forward on, yeah, the principal’s really important, and I think we’re starting to see some ways that we need to think more creatively about school leadership and how it happens. And we need to think about more than just the principal. So, we’ve got some new work that we’re doing, which we can talk more about, to really help people think creatively about how you might redesign school leadership to support teachers in an effective way and to get the results that we want for kids. So, that’s a snapshot of kind of what we’re up to.

Angela Kelly: I’m going to ask one question about the organization itself, and then we’ll go on to more of the content and the deep diving that you have been exploring and researching lately. So, people who are listening, I think they’re thinking, I’m wondering, that they’re thinking, “Wow, this sounds amazing. Like, this would be great to have in every state where it’s not, you don’t just only have the option of getting your master’s degree in order to follow a school leadership path, but there’s this more creative opportunity to learn and deep dive and to get your hands in the work as you’re learning.” 

So, you and I were talking about the funding for this, right? And the founder of this. We heard a little bit about his background, but people might be wondering, like, “Wow, this would be an interesting concept to explore in another, wherever I live.” How does your organization handle the funding that’s required to put forth this type of program?

Lindsay Whorton: Yeah. So, I think it is definitely a good thing to think about in other states, and you know, we’re really focused in Texas and so happy to be helpful, you know, to anybody doing that exploration. For us, I mean, so we, we have three big sources of funds. Our founder, Charles, made a big investment in this place when we opened. He created the campus, gifted it to the organization, and will continue to be a big part of how we do what we do. 

And then in addition to Charles’s funding, we fundraise, and so there’s foundations and individuals across the state of Texas, across the country who support our work. And then there are some of our programs where there are districts who pay people lots of money to support them to develop and strengthen their principals.

We do have some small fees associated with some of our programs, far less than you would pay other folks, but those fees help us reach more people. And so, those are kind of the three sources of funds. And it is true that investments in people are not little. These are big investments, but also, and so having a funder, a person with vision like Charles makes such a big difference in your ability to do this kind of work. 

And if we think about it over the long term, an investment in a principal who stays in the school three to five years longer, gets ever better results for kids. You know, if you take the that investment in that principal and you divide it over like all of those students who are impacted over time, I mean, it’s an extremely cost-effective, you know, investment. 

Linda Darling-Hammond just released some new research about the importance of investing in principals and, you know, makes the argument that not only if, it can feel like a big upfront investment, but if you don’t make it, you pay for it on the back end of like having to spend money on all these other things, like when you choose not to invest in people. So, I’m always trying to like help reframe these human capital investments because I think they feel scary to people, but they can be so impactful and such a good return on those investments.

Angela Kelly: I really love that you said this because we are investing something, whether that’s time, effort, or financial resources, but we’re investing it on the front end or the back end, whether we realize it or not. And so many districts, they are afraid to invest up front because they’re afraid of like, “What if it doesn’t work?” 

But then they end up spending more time, more effort, and more financial resources on the back end, either cleaning it up or having to replace, I read a study that said every time a principal has a turnover, it’s an average of seventy-five thousand dollars from releasing them to the hiring, the all of the work that goes into hiring, onboarding, trainings, recruitment, all of that. It really adds up. So, that’s a chunk of change, right, to be replacing your principals just because they don’t have the training they need to be successful. So, I love that you mentioned that.

So, donorship and the donors really do see the long-term gain and the long-term value of the work that you’re doing. So, I think that’s wonderful. Yeah. So, moving on to the content, a little more of the content about what it is you teach, how you teach it, the approach you’re taking, and then the work that you’re personally doing as in regards to the organization.

Lindsay Whorton: So, across our programs, the thing I would lift up as being consistent and then we’ll talk about, you know, the way it looks a little bit different in each one. I think all of our programs have an emphasis on kind of three big areas. One is personal leadership. So, we really think that what is happening kind of like in here, in your mind, in your body, like with your emotions, is a really significant part of how you show up and how you impact people around you. 

And so, all of our programs in different ways have a focus on kind of that inner work of leadership, how you manage your physical energy, how you manage and regulate your emotions, how you protect and preserve time to think, how you think about your professional identity, how you stay connected and purposeful, you know, all those pieces. And I think we’re not the only leadership development organization in the US that does that, but I think that is a real unique point of emphasis for us.

Then the other kind of through line is the work of leadership is fundamentally about influencing, supporting, helping, cajoling other people to achieve big results. And so, leadership is fundamentally enacted through others. And so, the second big strand is about how do you lead people and lead teams. How do you give and deliver feedback? How do you help a person grow and improve? How do you help a team be more than the sum of its parts? So, that’s a big point of emphasis.

And then the third area is always about vision, strategy, and change. You know, how are you moving your organization forward, setting the vision and priorities, identifying what needs to look different. I mean, so those are kind of the three common areas. Now, that can look quite different depending on which program we’re in. So, like when we’re, we have a program right now invested in future principals who live in West Texas, the Permian Basin, a region that’s really in need of strong future principals. 

And so in that program, when we talk about growing and empowering others, I mean, some of what we’re focused on there is, you know, the art of feedback and coaching. How do you support a teacher? How do you see that need? How do you deliver the feedback? How do you do it in a way where they can receive it, where it’s useful to them, where they grow?

When we’re dealing with a brand new superintendent, hopefully, you know, they’ve now been through a variety of leadership positions, and hopefully, they’ve got some pretty good reps under their belt around feedback and coaching. So, that’s less of an emphasis in that program. But when you’re a superintendent, you’re leading one of the most complicated, diverse, cross-functional teams, you know, that you’ve ever had, and it feels quite different to be leading a CFO and a chief academic officer and a chief of schools officer than it might have to be leading your school instructional team.

Angela Kelly: Yeah, and answering to a school board and the community, navigating all of that. Yes.

Lindsay Whorton: That’s right. So, that’s an example of like within those three themes, we’re really tuning the specific learning objectives and the focus to meet the needs of where that leader is given what job they’re in and the challenges they’re facing, you know, in their career. But all of it, one of our big commitments is the Center for Creative Leadership published some research a long time ago that said when we look at how leaders are developed, it’s actually not sitting in a classroom that is the main thing. It’s not reading books, it’s not listening to lectures. Those things are closer to 10%. The other 90 is made up of about 20% comes from mentoring, coaching, learning from peers. 

But then the 70% is actually on-the-job learning, having hard challenging assignments, and growing as you take on those hard challenging assignments. And so, everything we do, you know, we want our kind of time on campus, which is the classroom part, to be really rigorous, really challenging, really practical. But we’re really trying to figure out how to unlock that 70%, how to send people back with something challenging to do so that it’s really practical and they get those reps in and at bat. So, I think that’s another thing that is true across all of our programs is we’re always trying to design around that 70-20-10. 

Angela Kelly: Yeah. And do you have coaches, mentors that go onto their sites as well?

Lindsay Whorton: It looks a little bit different in each program, but most of our programs have an executive coaching component. Those executive coaches typically go and see the person in action a few times, but that’s not the primary lens, you know, of the coaching. And honestly, if we think about a principal, they’ve got a principal supervisor who’s watching them in action and giving them feedback on a regular basis. The executive coach tends to dig in a little bit deeper into some of those themes of personal leadership, “What’s the root cause?” So, we have found that to be an extremely powerful lens. 

And then when we work with school districts who are doing system change work, so when we talked about the principal work earlier and later when we talk about the school redesign, we have teams who are in the districts coaching and guiding the districts through that system change work. So, it’s a combination of folks coming here and us following them back to their job to be a support to them.

Angela Kelly: Yeah, I love this. I wish I could gift every state with something this comprehensive. It’s literally the business model that I’ve created here in California in a state of 42 million people and as a solopreneur, like I find this so fascinating because it can be done. And some of the avenues in which we need to take to give people options, to give districts opportunities for different styles of learning and different ways of growing and expanding their leadership capacity, this is a model that is working. 

And it’s exciting to discuss it here on the podcast, but also just to celebrate the work that you guys are doing, the innovation that’s occurring here, and the impact that it’s making. So, I find it uplifting and inspiring and hopeful that school leaders are being provided, one, the support, just the acknowledgment and the awareness that they need support, to leadership skills taught to them in a way that’s real in real time, like in the actual work that they’re doing. 

So, it’s not some hypothetical conversation they’re having. It’s like, “This is actually going on for me right now, and I have a touchpoint, a person who can come in and walk me through this before I make a decision and take actions on that.” So, it’s such a fantastic model. So tell me a little bit about the work you have personally been diving into and exploring in your role at the organization as president. Tell us what you personally are working on these days.

Lindsay Whorton: I released a book recently called A New School Leadership Architecture. And the book is both, you know, a personal project in the sense that I wrote it, and it’s hard to draw the line because I have learned so much from the work that we’ve done and the interactions I have with our team.

Angela Kelly: Integrated into.

Lindsay Whorton: So it’s like I wrote it down, and I sort of consider it ours as well. Because as we worked with principals, I think one of the things that I’ve witnessed, you know, getting to see incredible, hard-working, talented, passionate people in action, classroom level, campus level, district level over the last 10 to 15 years, is just how demanding, you know, these jobs are. I think one of the things that is hard to relay to people who are distant from public schools.

Angela Kelly: Or watching from afar.

Lindsay Whorton: Yeah, is how hard people are working and how complex and demanding these jobs are. And particularly over the last eight years. So if we think about pre-COVID through COVID. We’re seeing some really clear patterns emerge. And I would argue these patterns are a little bit more pronounced in Texas but are true nationally and I think represent where the nation may be headed. And if we look at the teaching profession over that period of time, the teaching profession is changing pretty dramatically. And in Texas, we saw a big spike in people leaving the profession over the 2018 through 2024 period.

And then what we saw nationally is if you look at young people going to schools of education. So I went to a school of education to be certified to be a teacher. There was a big drop off in the interest of high school graduates entering schools of education around the last big economic recession. So the housing crisis in 2008, 2009. We saw interest really drop off, which is common actually with recessions, but then it never recovered. 

And so now, you have more and more teachers leaving the profession and you don’t have large cohorts of trained teacher candidates graduating from our schools of education, ready to step into those vacancies. And so Texas is trying to fill more vacancies than it’s had for many many years at a time when it has fewer aspiring teacher candidates than it had many years ago.

And so what that means is we’re hiring a lot of brand new teachers who had very limited if any pre-certification preparation. And we know that those teachers are one, that nobody’s their best in their first five years. Two, that it’s going to be even harder if you didn’t get development and support before you started. 

And three, that those novice teachers with limited preparation tend to cluster in the schools that need great teachers the most. So where students are low income, where academic performance is currently low. So that’s what we’ve seen in Texas and then we see that that population of teachers leaves the profession at an even faster rate than everyone else, right?

So we have a dramatically different teaching profession in ’26 than we did in 2016. And so we know that that’s a reality. And then if we look at the role of a principal, we know that the job of a principal has just gotten more and more complex over the last 25 years.

Angela Kelly: And layered.

Lindsay Whorton: Right? More things have come onto the plate, nothing has come off of the plate.

Angela Kelly: Right. Because we’re subbing.

Lindsay Whorton: Right. And ultimately, the mind shift we made to prioritize instructional leadership, good, you know, we want our principals to be instructional experts. We want them to be focused on student achievement and learning. But the way that we introduced that mind shift sometimes got translated into a list of things that principals felt like they were personally responsible for doing. And one example of that is the principal is personally responsible for coaching and developing every teacher on their campus.

Angela Kelly: Under the umbrella of instructional leadership, right?

Lindsay Whorton: That’s right. And Texas has really big schools. But so in Texas, that might mean that one person is personally responsible for the development of 25, 30, 40 teachers. And if we compare that expectation to what we would expect of managers who are supporting other knowledge workers, it’s usually closer to six or seven people.

Angela Kelly: Like in the corporate world?

Lindsay Whorton: Yeah. It is close to mathematically impossible for a principal to provide the level of support that each of those teachers deserve with a portfolio that big. And now, we’ve layered on, in some schools, half of those teachers are in their first three years and the bulk of them didn’t get any preparation before they started. And so it’s no wonder that things feel close to impossible in all of the seats that you sit in in a school.

And so, I think I had been on this journey of coming to terms with that reality and then trying to figure out what does that mean for the kind of work that we do. You know, because we certainly believe that we want to help people improve their skills and bring their best effort to the work every single day, and that leadership really really matters and it can be grown and it can be developed. 

But it’s also true that if you are in a job that is close to structurally impossible to do within, you know, a 24-hour day, that just sending the message to people that if they just worked harder or were smarter or were more skilled, that all of these problems would go away, just didn’t feel right to me.

And so that eventually led to this book that makes this argument that we need to rethink the jobs of school leadership. We need to share the leadership work beyond the principal. We need to tap the leadership capabilities of some of the great teachers we have in our classrooms. We’ve got to think differently about this. 

And then, once we structure this in a way that is achievable and sustainable for all of these important, incredible professionals, then we can think more in a more targeted way about how to develop them to have the skills that they need to succeed. So that’s the book project that has come to life and we’re now working with a handful of districts across the state of Texas to put this into practice and to bring these ideas to life in schools across the state.

Angela Kelly: I am so eager to read that book because this is the conversation I have with myself, with my audience, with my clients all of the time, and just to know that we’re not in isolation. I think a lot of school leaders and a lot of mentors of school leaders are having similar thoughts, but we’re having them in isolation, separation, and I hope this podcast brings us together in these conversations because I think we are ready. We are ripe for having and we’re open to change. 

We’re open to trying different things because we’ve tried the same thing over and over expecting different results and knocking our heads against the wall. So I’m really eager to read the book. We’ll put the link to the book in the show notes for any of you who are interested in checking that out.

So Lindsay, can you share, like I always like to give leaders as they’re listening to this, like something tangible they can walk away with and implement? So whether that’s a strategy you teach in your programs or just some hands-on skills, wisdom, knowledge, information that you’ve learned over your tenure in this position, just what can we give our listeners that they can walk away with and leverage?

Lindsay Whorton: Yeah, I’m going to tease out one of the ideas in the book and then create an entry point where like even if you don’t read the book, All right. you can take this and run with this. So one of the ideas in the book is we got to rethink this structure, and then there’s this idea we encountered in another text called The Leadership Pipeline a long time ago that basically makes this argument that as you move into a new leadership role in your career, when you transition what they call leadership levels, it isn’t just you doing the same leadership work that you’ve always done, but bigger and on a larger scale.

It’s not just continuity that there’s actually this big shift that you have to make because you’ve got a new assignment and that new assignment usually requires you to develop, demonstrate, or use new skills, to change the way that you spend your time, and to shift your professional identity. And professional identity I think of is like the highlight reel of things that you’re really good at and you find value in and you’ve got a gravitational pull like, this is who I am, this is the kind of great professional that I am. 

And for teachers who leave the classroom for the first time, you know, there’s often this really big professional identity shift of like, I’ve always been the person who is personally making the eyes of students kind of light up. And they can really miss that when they transition to a role where your job is actually to support other adults to make that magic happen. And it’s a real shift in how you see yourself.

And to me, like in the simplest terms, when we think about jobs that feel impossible, one of the things that we need to do is we need to get clearer about what are the most important things that each of us needs to be doing to contribute to the success of the school. And we break that down in a lot of ways in terms of the structure, but you can get to it pretty quickly by just saying a place to start is to say no matter what job you have in your school, what is the work that only you can do to support the success of the school, your team, the people you support? 

And this isn’t, this isn’t a question that’s about like how special you are. So if it’s me, it’s not a question of like what can only I do because I’m so special and I’m talented in these ways and these are my special gifts. It’s a question of what is the work that only I can do because of the position that I’m in, the responsibilities that I have, the unique information and opportunities that I have because of that role.

Angela Kelly: Like what can I not delegate out? 

Lindsay Whorton: That’s right. That’s right. And then if I don’t do it, it doesn’t get done, or it doesn’t get done as well. So let’s start by getting super clear about that. And then the next question is, how much of my time? So if we think about skills, time application, professional identity. How much of my time am I really spending doing those things? And for some of us, the answer is not very much.

Angela Kelly: Yes.

Lindsay Whorton: So then we say, okay, well what are the things I’m spending time on instead? And we can list that out. And my guess is those things are going to fall into one of two buckets. One bucket of things are things that are important to get done and we need to find another person to delegate or to build capacity for another person to take the lead in that area. And right now we may genuinely be struggling to figure out if I stop doing this, how would it get done? And we need to spend a little bit of time thinking about, how could I build the capacity in someone else to take more of this on so that I could spend more time doing the thing that only I can do. 

So that’s one bucket. But then the second area, what I think we might find is there’s a set of things that we’re spending a lot of time on and the reason we spend a lot of time on them is because we love them. They make us feel good, we enjoy it, it’s connected to our purpose. And there’s not actually a good explanation of why we’re doing it as opposed to someone else other than we’re attached to that kind of work and we need to make a transition in our professional identity to embrace this new work that’s our responsibility.

So I would just offer for all of our education leaders who are always feeling so stretched, I think a good routine is just to reflect on are you clear about those priorities? Can you name what feels like a barrier to shifting more of your time in those areas? And then can you notice where there’s genuinely like an external problem that you have to deal with, like there’s some external barriers you have to solve. But can you notice the places where actually there’s something going on with you that’s leading you to spend your time in that way and you can shift kind of your mindset and your motivations to really prioritize the work that only you can do.

Angela Kelly: Yes. Yes. Does this sound familiar, Empowered Principals? This is the work that we’re doing over here as well. And it’s the individual work, the internal work, the identity work. It is, I just recorded a podcast prior to this interview and I think it just comes down to that. Everything that I’ve been teaching the last 10 years, it really comes full circle to the internal work that we’re doing, the identity of ourselves as leaders and what we believe our capacity for impact is. 

So I love that you just reiterated all of that because like I said, time is a resource, our effort, our attention, our focus, those are all resources, our financials are resources, and it’s what levers we pull into what capacities we do, but this internal work that we do and identity work. I do honestly believe, Lindsay, that is a missing component in the traditional administrative credentialing programs. I do think this component that you just spoke of is one of the gap areas in preparing school leaders for the actual work that they’re going to be doing.

Lindsay Whorton: This is not unique to education leaders. I think this is true for everybody. I’ve experienced this in my job and one of the ways that we frame out the work of different levels of leadership is principals have to be thinking multi-year. You got to be thinking long-term, which means you got to get out of the day-to-day and the reactive. 

And when I first moved into this role at Holdsworth, it was hard for me to release some of the details that I loved, both because there was capacity that needed to be built and because I loved it. And then to embrace the new work that I needed to do. And that was partly because some of that new work, I didn’t think I liked it very much. Some of that new work, I wasn’t confident or comfortable in those new skills.

But I think the encouragement that I would offer is that one, this is a long game, so I wouldn’t want people to hear that if you can’t make these shifts immediately, that you’ve really failed and you don’t have what it takes. And I was really lucky to have an incredible board chair who I think was constantly setting a very ambitious, high bar for how I should be operating long-term, what the organization could do long-term. And at times that felt very stressful because it can feel like, how can I get there so quickly? 

But if you hold that high bar long-term and you really work towards it, over time, you can really make these changes and it really does unlock, you learn that you can do things that you’re not sure that you can do. You got to give yourself that time and space. You learn that you can love things that you don’t know if you like yet. And you can see the rewards of the capacity of the organization really grows if you can find that right level of elevation for your leadership, and then figure out how to grow and empower other folks. 

Angela Kelly: Yeah, that’s so well said. It’s like when you go from teaching to school leadership and you loved decorating your room and you loved the bulletin boards and you, so you end up going and doing that in the staff lounge, right? I we always joke about that in my in my cohorts where it’s okay to do some of those things that you love to do, but we need to put some parameters and constraints around that, like how much time you’re going to spend doing it and what you’re actually doing it for and but giving yourself a little bit of that fun but just being able to release some of that to delegate that out because anybody can decorate the staff room, right?

But if you want to help out, you want to spend 15, 20 minutes in there, that’s fine, being able to give yourself that pleasure. But I love how you talked about just the willingness and giving yourself a little grace and time to get to know these new parts of the job, right? 

The new parts of school leadership where you’re not in a classroom anymore and there’s some sadness there, but then now you’re in all the classrooms and finding ways to frame school leadership in a way that still fills your heart and soul, but you’re also embracing the capacity of your impact and expanding that as you are continuing to learn and grow in the new position. So I love that you said that. That’s really impactful. Any final words of wisdom, Lindsay, that you’d like to share with all those school leaders listening out there?

Lindsay Whorton: I always just want to express appreciation. I mean, I think as a young kid, I realized that teaching is the best, hardest, most important job that you can have. And feel some sadness that’s not the work that I am doing right now, but find great joy in getting to witness and encourage and lift up people who are doing that work because it’s just so important. And we as a society don’t do enough to express our admiration and appreciation. 

So just want to say, as we are starting a new school year, just that I feel so grateful for people who have dedicated themselves and their careers and their lives to supporting our kids. And so just appreciate what the listeners are doing and hope that there will be a nugget in here that will encourage, inspire and equip you to achieve all the things that you’re trying to achieve for kids.

Angela Kelly: Wonderful. And if you happen to be a resident of Texas, please go check them out. Leverage this opportunity. They have so many resources, so many amazing programs and different ways to support school leaders out there. So if you are in Texas, that’s wonderful. And if you’re not from Texas and you’re listening to this, a question just came in my mind. Can people from out of state come to this program or is it Texas only at this point? 

Lindsay Whorton: The eligibility for our programs is almost exclusively Texas. There’s a little corner of New Mexico that’s included in a couple of our programs, but for now we’re very focused on Texas, but we have a number of resources on the website. Our team appears at various national conferences and we’re always happy to be a resource to folks in other parts of the country who are trying to do similar types of work.

Angela Kelly: Yeah, wonderful. Wonderful. Lindsay, thank you for your time. I’m sure you’re a very busy woman out there leading this charge and honoring the work of your founder and I do hope to collaborate in some capacity. I think this would be amazing for California and Texas to be in conversation around this and how we can establish this type of work in different states. 

So if you’re listening from another state, stay tuned. I’ll keep you guys in the loop on all of the happenings in Texas and in other parts of the country. So, with that said, again, Lindsay, thank you for your time. Was a pleasure to have you on the podcast and we wish everyone a wonderful empowered week. Take good care.

Lindsay Whorton: Thanks so much.

Angela Kelly: Thanks.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Empowered Principal® Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, please visit AngelaKellyCoaching.com where you can sign up for weekly updates and learn more about the tools that will help you become an emotionally fit school leader.

Angela Kelly: Hello, Empowered Principals. Welcome to episode 454. 

Welcome to The Empowered Principal® Podcast, a not-so-typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host, certified life coach Angela Kelly. 

Hey there, Empowered Principals. You know what time of year it is. We’re going into the fall. And that means the fall dip is coming. Look, you’re not going to prevent the fall dip from happening. That’s not what flipping the fall dip is all about. I invite you to join us in Flip the Fall Dip 2026. We are hosting the Fall Dip throughout the month of September. So, September 16th, 22nd, and 29th, we are hosting the Fall Dip Series. 

Listen up school leaders, there’s no school that stays in complete flow 100% of the time. There’s no school culture that doesn’t have its ups and downs. And there’s no one leader out there who is preventing the fall dip and the energy in other people from shifting. It’s about navigating it. Leading through it and staying in alignment with your own leadership identity and integrity. Join us for the Fall Dip this coming September 16th. We’ll see you there.

Hello, Empowered Principals. Welcome to today’s episode. I have an incredible human on the podcast for an interview. Her name is Laura Parker. I am so thrilled to have her on today. This is a topic we have never broached on this podcast, and it’s something so relevant, so critical, so important.

When I met Laura in our meet and greet, I knew instantly that we needed to have this conversation. So I’m going to preface this story by saying, the work that Laura does in the world, it’s intense. And so this is a podcast episode that you may want to like sit down for and listen or be with your headphones on so that you can process this information in your own way on your own time. I wouldn’t have it around kids. I just want to give that heads-up because I want us to be able to speak as honestly and openly and candidly as possible.

Laura works with an organization called The Exodus Road. And I am going to just pass it over to her and let her use her language and her company’s language to discuss the work that they provide and the services that they provide for students and families.

Laura Parker: Thank you, Angela. Thanks for having me on The Empowered Principal® today. And yes, I’m just really excited about this conversation because I feel like it’s so so critical for our educators. So The Exodus Road, which is the non-profit that I am the CEO and co-founder of, is a global anti-human trafficking organization.

So we primarily work both internationally and in the United States. We’re headquartered in Colorado. We work with law enforcement to find those that are currently trapped in trafficking. And we’ve done that for about 15 years. We provide them technology and intelligence to remove those victims and then arrest their traffickers. And we’ve been able to do that with law enforcement for almost 6,500 individuals over 15 years. And then we also have aftercare programs where we really walk with survivors in their journeys towards healing. 

And we’ve been able to serve about 2,500 survivors that are coming out of trafficking scenarios globally. And then we also do prevention education work where we go into communities and we look at, okay, what are the vulnerabilities to exploitation and how do we come alongside and equip communities to help protect themselves? And we’ve been able to do that to over 65,000 individuals worldwide, including the United States. And I think that’s the part of our conversation that will really have the most relevance, which I’m excited to talk about.

Angela Kelly: Yes. So can you tell us briefly how you entered into this work? I love the story and I think it gives such a beautiful context to what brought you to the work you’re currently doing now.

Laura Parker: Yes, yeah, thanks for asking. So my husband and I actually moved to Thailand when our kids were three, five, and seven. So it was nearly 20 years ago now. We were taking a two-year contract in Northern Thailand and we were running a children’s home that served girls. We had about 45 girls in our care that did not have access to education. And so we were delivering them shelter and access to education along with staff for a private family foundation.

And in that process, we started hearing from the village elders of these girls that we were caring for. We started hearing this phrase that there were no pretty girls in the village. And we thought that is a terrible thing to say. Why are people saying this? And we learned that they were saying that because there was this very common practice of men coming into these very remote villages in Northern Thailand and offering fake jobs to the girls 14, 15, 16 years old, and then taking them away from the villages and then those girls disappearing into the red light districts in Bangkok and in Pattaya and Southern Thailand.

And we were just horrified by that. Like we had seen the movie Taken so we knew a little bit about trafficking, but beyond that, we didn’t know about it. And it just started us down this rabbit hole of learning about exploitation in that part of the world. And eventually my husband got deputized by the Thai police as an undercover informant. And so he actually started going into some of these places that were catering to Western tourists, sex tourists, and trying to identify minors who were being sold there. And that’s what started our work, specifically working with law enforcement was providing human intelligence to identify minors that were being sold in foreign red light districts.

Angela Kelly: And what comes up for me as I’m hearing this story is, okay, you were in another country. It feels like a little movie, even the story that you’re telling us feels like it’s a make-believe movie. But number one, yes, it was happening in Thailand, but I just want us to be 100% truthful with ourselves as educators that this is a situation happening globally, including in our nation, in our communities, and large cities, small, rural, these things do happen everywhere. So it is important for us as school leaders to at least have the awareness and the information we need. 

And I’m sure you’re going to share some tips and strategies for people to understand what they can do, what they need to be looking for, and then what they can do. But I know that this might feel like a topic you want to shut down and not think about, or that doesn’t happen, I’m from a small town or this is a healthy community. It can be all of that. Would you say that’s true, Laura?

Laura Parker: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think the reality is that trafficking and exploitation, it does happen in every country. And there’s an estimated over a million victims of human trafficking specifically in the United States today. And I think the intersection particularly with educators is the real mass wave that we’ve seen exploitation go online. And those numbers are the numbers that are the most alarming to me, you know, from my seat. 

You know, I’ve been in this work for 15 years and I’m a former educator myself. I’m a teacher and I think when I look at the train of exploitation that’s coming to our kids via the online world, that’s what’s very alarming and should be sounding the alarms for all of us, even though you’re right, Angela, it’s an uncomfortable topic to talk about.

Angela Kelly: Yes. And I just wanted to put that on the table because I think back when I was teaching, and I was an elementary teacher, but to me, I can’t fathom somebody thinking like that about children because I love children. I went into teaching because I love children. And it’s like, no, people don’t really do these things. And those are just movies.

But I wouldn’t have been able to fathom even thinking like something like that happening in my school as a teacher, let alone as a principal. But yet, when I became a principal and then eventually up into the district, your lens, your perspective, it widens so much because you are now privy to information around families and community situations that maybe you were not listening to or you weren’t privy to as a classroom teacher.

And I was shocked, actually, Laura, at the types of incidents going on in our families, in our communities. And that really opened my eyes to wanting to be an advocate, not just somebody who, if a situation came by, I would handle it, but to be aware and informed enough to be on the lookout for certain types of behaviors or the ways that kids might communicate this and then what to even do, where to take it and where to go with it. Can you walk us through that?

And I love that you were in education so you can understand the feelings of fear that we have as a teacher, being afraid to speak up because we fear for the child, we fear for their family, or we fear for ourselves, but also needing to be that advocate for a child who doesn’t have the power or the voice to protect themselves.

Laura Parker: Yeah, yeah, it’s really important. I think one of the things we’re really seeing is that kids are handling this type of online exploitation and dangerous relationships online largely by themselves because a lot of the adults in their lives aren’t pressing in and having conversations around digital safety, especially. And we have seen kids in elementary school, we’ve seen kids in middle school and in high school, all across the gamut, really feel trapped because they don’t know if this is a safe relationship or they don’t know if they should send that picture.

And all of this is happening really under our, you know, the parents’ noses and under the teachers’ noses. And so often, I think as educators, we stand in a reactive stance. And I think that’s really normal, right? Let’s wait until a problem arises and then we’ll handle and we’ll react and we’ll respond. And it’s important obviously to know how to respond appropriately when things happen. But what we’re seeing is that prevention and starting conversations preemptively is such an important tool for teachers to have in their tool belt when it comes to protecting kids online.

We talk a lot about this reality that if kids are not consistently talking about digital safety with trusted adults in their lives, then when something happens that is really scary, they’re likely not going to think that’s a safe conversation because they’ve never talked about it before, you know, with a safe person in their lives. And so, yeah, so being an advocate is really important even though it might feel intimidating.

And we encourage people, you know, two things, I think, in the education space, especially, is that what does it look like to have these informal micro conversations with students about their online worlds? You know, it doesn’t necessarily have to be that you block out a whole health class for six weeks and talk about online safety, but you can have these micro conversations with students. Hey, you know, what are you watching on YouTube lately and do you play Roblox? You can have these informal conversations again, just building trust with students.

And that is something you can do every day. And then it is important, I think that educators really look at what does it look like to have curriculum and more formalized structured training where you’re really giving kids, you know, structured safety skills and how to navigate the online world because I mean when you look at the statistics around online exploitation of kids, the numbers have just absolutely skyrocketed.

You know, here in Colorado, we have a program called Influenced, which does prevention education around digital safety. And we work with parents and teachers and students. And just in our towns here in Colorado, we have seen that over 56% of kids have reported an online danger or an online harm that has been done to them in their last year. 

And we had one class of ninth graders, we had 50 students, they were in ninth grade health class and they did one of our courses with Influenced and they reported 105 instances of online predation. And that was just 50 students reporting 105 different instances. You know, whether the adults in the room like to talk about it or not, it is something that the kids are dealing with that are right in our classrooms and we have to be the ones that start the conversation.

Angela Kelly: Yes. And I was just thinking as you were speaking, how it’s very easy for educators to be like, “Oh my gosh, I’m hearing this. I care. This matters to me. And it’s one more thing.” You know, where my brain was going is, yes, but we in education are learning that how we’re spending our time now may not be the most effective way and what we need to be spending our time in. Like when I think about this, I love that there is actually curriculum out there for both students, teachers, but also parents. 

So we can share that responsibility and having these conversations, normalizing these conversations so they become more comfortable. So kids feel safe to report them and they know what to look out for because we can’t be hovering and there’s only so many parental controls you can put on your computer or on the phones. But kids need to have an awareness and need to know who to go to in the event something feels off or seems off. If we don’t have these conversations, we’re going to have bigger problems in our schools than reading, writing, and math, right?

We need to incorporate, yes, we need the academic intellect, we need rigorous programming in our schools, but this is a form of rigor. It’s a form of self-protection, self-awareness, relationships, understanding, how to navigate the world in a way that keeps people alive, that keeps people safe. And I can think of no more important curriculum than what it is that you’re doing.

Laura Parker: Thank you. Yeah, I totally agree, Angela. I just think there is this truth that kids on average are spending between eight and nine hours a day in recreational screen time every day. And so if they’re spending eight to nine hours a day in recreational screen time anyway, the impact of that is huge, obviously on their mental health and their relationships. But I think you take kids that are, obviously, we all know their brains are not fully developed even through high school. And you take these kids that are consuming eight to nine hours online and talking to strangers in private chat rooms. 

And you add that formula to these underdeveloped brains, and then you add that to this lack of basic safety skills online, this lack of basic understanding of how to recognize a potential online predator or how not to give private information out or how not to send an inappropriate picture, all of that. And you add all of that that formula together, and then you add this other element of the fact that the spike of professional predators for our kids has just skyrocketed. 

And we’re unfortunately, we’re serving our kids up to them because we, you know, the adults aren’t talking about it. We don’t really understand how online exploitation works. We’re a little nervous to press into it. We have too much to do, like you said, as educators, and so it feels like something that should just be handled at home.

But the reality is that so much, you know, it impacts so much for the student and then for the school culture. And the, you know, what you pay for in terms of police reports and child impact and mental health in the long term, if something does happen, is really obviously a lot more costly than what it takes to press in and have a prevention education curriculum or program going in your school that really tries to cut some of this off at the head.

Angela Kelly: Yeah. No, prevention is always a better cure than the reaction after the fact and the cost associated with it. I mean, this really is a conversation of life and death and we want to honor that and really respect the nature of the conversation. So I can imagine, and I guess my question is like, what is the timing? So as an elementary principal, I can see getting a lot of pushback because kids are young and is this conversation developmentally appropriate and how can we have conversations around keeping kids safe? 

And then when do we start to integrate these conversations in? You know, I’m thinking elementary, then we’ve got middle, and then we’ve got high school where they are developmentally engaging in social media in different ways or being online in different ways as they age. So can you tell us a little bit about like how you guide schools at each of those levels to have these conversations?

Laura Parker: Yeah, you know, I think the most important thing to try to get into our minds is that if we’re going to allow a child to play an online game like Roblox, then if they’re old enough to do that, then they are old enough to learn about some basic safety tips. I think so often, we will say, “Oh, play the online games, even get on social media, consume YouTube, etc.,” and we’ll talk about safety when they get to ninth grade. But unfortunately, the reality is that these kids are being exposed at second and third grade, especially if they’re in these Discord chat rooms that they’re private and there are adults that are engaging with them in these private chat rooms.

And so, yes, obviously there is a flow on what conversations you can have. I would say for elementary school kids, there needs to be definitely conversations with the parents as early as possible around what is coming. I think because as much as you can encourage parents to delay their child’s access to the internet, to a smartphone, to some of these online games with private chat rooms, the better. So I think parent education is really, really critical in elementary school and offering that to parents. 

But I do think even for children, you know, there are some basic frameworks. Hey, we never when we’re online, we never ever talk to someone that we don’t know in person. We never ever give our address or our age to someone. I mean, there are some basic things that you can teach people just like you would teach a third grader, don’t get in a van at the park, even if someone is, a stranger is offering you candy. You know, we teach kids that.

So we have to be teaching them the same kind of basic safety skills even in elementary school, especially if they have access to these online gaming platforms and the online world. And then definitely when you get into middle school and high school, you have to just be honest about what these kids are seeing and what they’re experiencing. And that just increases in extremity as the kids get older. Obviously, sexting is huge for high schoolers. We’re seeing that flow into the middle school as well.

AI-generated child sexual abuse material is also unfortunately really increasing. And so that means that in fact, it increased over 6,000% in the last year. And so that means whereas before in middle school and high school particularly, sextortion, which is essentially a minor or a child or an even an 18-year-old, you know, someone sends an inappropriate or a nude image to someone else. And then that person extorts them for money or blackmails them for money. So that’s sextortion.

And sextortion is the fastest growing crime according to the FBI against kids today in the United States. And the target for sextortion is actually boys ages 14 through 17. So that’s interesting. A lot of people assume that it’s just for girls, but sextortion, a real target is boys. But we have that going and that’s happening in middle school and high school kids and oftentimes they’re just paying the crypto or paying the Venmo quietly and mortified because they don’t want this picture to be released.

But then there’s now there’s the AI generated CSAM, which essentially means that predators are just taking, you know, the face of a seventh grader and nudifying that, and then reaching out to that seventh grader and saying, “Oh, I’m going to put this on your Snapchat. I’m going to put this all over. I’m going to DM this to all of your friends if you don’t give me $100 on Venmo by tomorrow.” And so these little seventh graders are horrified and think, “Oh my gosh, well, I just have to pay the $100.” 

And so that’s how that, you know, you really have to have the courage to start talking about that because that is going to start happening to them even in middle school and high school. But, you know, obviously you’re not having that conversation with a third grader or a second grader yet.

Angela Kelly: Right. Yes. No, and I think a lot of this conversation is around our discomfort as adults. It is uncomfortable to think about a student being exposed to that, a child being exposed to that. And yet they are. So it does not behoove anyone for us to put our head in the sand because we are uncomfortable. That’s where I come in as a leadership coach, right? I help you navigate the feelings of discomfort around these topics so that you can come up with an approach, a plan that works for you and your school. 

But a lot of this, I do feel like parents are embarrassed or ashamed to talk about it or the kids are worried their parents will be mad. And then teachers, that’s an uncomfortable conversation to have with children that aren’t your own children. They are students. And so I’m assuming your services help educators navigate how to have those conversations, how to communicate with families so that there is a collaborative approach to this conversation, to education, to awareness, and to safety for all of our kids.

Laura Parker: Yeah, yeah, we do. We talk to teachers a lot about, okay, what, how do we respond in the first five minutes? And how do we have relationships in the classroom and with the parents because it is a collaborative approach. And I do think you’re totally right, Angela, it’s the adult discomfort. Our kids are way down the track on what the realities are in their online and their eight hours that they’re spending a day. And we are back here just kind of inching along because we still can’t reconcile the fact that this is the world.

Angela Kelly: Yes.

Laura Parker: But the fact that we cannot reconcile that this is the world doesn’t change the world. The world that is for our kids is the world that is for our kids. And they could very easily be accepting a DM profile request from a stranger that they think is, you know, another fifth grade student. And actually is, you know, a online predator in another country that is reaching out to hundreds of kids every day. And so our discomfort should not be the thing that keeps us from keeping our kids safe.

And, you know, we can put our heads in the sand about it, or we could just burn it all down and just say, “Forget it, no technology ever.” But I think the real invitation is how do we as teachers and as educators become trusted guides to children in this scary online world? 

Angela Kelly: Because that’s what I was saying, there’s only so many protections you can put in place and you can, you can have a child abstain for so long, but eventually technology will get into their hands, right? Like it’s right here. And because it’s also so enticing, they will seek it out. And I think like I wouldn’t want, you know, I have a son who’s 27 now, but I wouldn’t want him to have been 14 to 18 years old. 

So in high school with no knowledge of what’s going on in the world and then be exposed to all of it at once at the age of 18 and be overwhelmed and either shut down or get completely sucked into something because there wasn’t information, there wasn’t awareness or any kind of experience with it until much later. So I agree. I think this is a conversation that is just essential because it is the world they live in. And as educators, our job is to help empower students for the world in which they live. And this is the world in which they’re living.

So it feels like there’s really no other option but to have this and then to manage our own discomfort as the adults, the more comfortable we get, meaning like the more we’re willing to feel the discomfort and expand it into normalcy, the easier it will get for us. But children will see it as a normal conversation and they’ll see you as, I’m assuming, like when you’re talking about, oh, it’s safe to talk with them about it. They care. They want to know. And that opens the child up to say, “Hey, someone just asked me for $100 on Venmo and took a photo that really isn’t even me, but, you know, or whatever happened.” But they need somewhere to go with it. And that should be us.

Laura Parker: Yeah. And you think about any difficult conversation with kids that we have, whether it be drugs or sex or anything that feels, you know, like those kind of taboo conversations.

Angela Kelly: Like coming of age conversations.

Laura Parker: Coming of age conversations. Yeah. And and this reality that when they when it becomes something that is silent and that’s not talked about, then right? That is prime targets for for secrets to grow and for shame to grow and for kids to feel really like they’re on their own as they try to handle something.

Angela Kelly:  Yeah. Because if we think it’s taboo and we treat it as taboo, then it must be taboo. So they will do everything in their power to, especially if they’re embarrassed that they got kind of sucked into something and they thought it was legitimate, even if they had a little bit of awareness, like it can feel embarrassing or shameful to to see like you got, you know, duped or or something like that. But can you tell us a little bit, as educators, that’s primarily who’s listening to this, what are some things we should be looking for? Like how can we expand our awareness and then what’s maybe the first step we should take in supporting a student?

Laura Parker: I think the biggest thing to be aware of is in your classrooms or in your relationships with your students. I think, and this would go for any kind of abuse, but just watch for sudden changes of behavior. You know, if a child is normally outgoing and engaging and all of a sudden they are depressed or isolated or like they’re pulling back from others. I think that’s a sign that something is wrong and it might not be anything to do with online exploitation, but it might be. I think the other thing to watch for is if kids, and this is a little bit difficult as educators, but it could be a flag. 

You know, if kids start to get very secretive about their phones or about their iPads or about their technology. You know, there’s some time in the classroom and people have phones out and they’re checking, etcetera. And then you have one kid that you just can tell is really hiding… They don’t want anybody else to see that screen. I think that would be a pretty significant red flag. And then obviously, if they tell you that anything is going on or is happening.

And I think if a student does come to you and shows you anything, whether it’s criminal cyberbullying, even from their peers, or it’s, I sent this image and it got sent around to the ninth grade. I sent it to my boyfriend Johnny and Johnny sent it around to the ninth grade or I feel like I’m right now in the middle of a sextortion something, and they won’t have the language for that, but someone’s threatening me or anything like that. The most important thing is really to watch yourself and how you respond in the first five minutes. 

You know, those first five minutes of a response either is going to allow the kid to keep talking to you or is going to shut them down. So we always tell people just take a deep breath and keep your face neutral and don’t immediately rapid-fire with a billion questions of who is this? And where did you meet them? And what are they saying? Let me see your phone.

Just let them tell their story as much as they’re willing to tell and make sure that the first words coming out of your mouth are, “Hey, thank you for telling me. This is not your fault.” I think that’s really important too because a lot of times we direct our anger towards the vulnerable 13-year-old and not the online predator that tricked them. And so it’s really important for us to just really create the safe, emotionally safe place for a student.

But then, you know, you need to immediately encourage the student. After you see something, you need to immediately encourage the student to block that account that is harassing them or bullying them. If it is a threatening message as a teacher, you can screenshot that, but you do want to be careful if it is a nude image of a minor, you do not want to screenshot that because you don’t want to be capturing any images of, you know, a sexually explicit image of a minor. 

So you’re going to be tempted to take the phone and scroll back and see the whole conversation and try to kind of flip into investigator mode, but you really need to immediately look, encourage the child to block the account immediately and stop engaging. If it is a threatening message that is harm, then you can you’re welcome to screenshot that, but if it’s a, you know, sexually explicit image, do not screenshot that. It still needs to be blocked. 

And then you need to ask the child if you can take the phone and then you need to report that. So if it’s something that you think could be a crime, then there are a couple resources. Obviously, the local police is one source. There’s also the CyberTipline, is an excellent source. They have a phone line and then also you can access them online. And then obviously you would need to engage parents and…

Angela Kelly: Yeah, the district would have to be informed.

Laura Parker: All of the things, yeah, all of the things that happen within the school would need to happen too. But it is really important to involve the local police, especially if it is any kind of, obviously, child sex trafficking or criminal cyber bullying or…

Angela Kelly: Well, we’re mandatory reporters, yes.

Laura Parker:  …harassment. All of that. Yes, yeah. So you have to follow your same mandated reported line even for, you know, an online crime or harm as you would any other.

Angela Kelly: So the question that came up for me was if we’re, let’s say, you were saying there are certain things you don’t screenshot or you’re telling them to block it right away for their own safety. The thought that came up for me was, well, wouldn’t that then eliminate evidence? But I’m assuming that the powers that be have a way to extract that information. So you don’t need to be the personal investigator as the educator. I guess that’s what I’m trying to say.

Laura Parker: Yeah. And that’s a great clarifier, Angela. When you block an account, it’s important that you don’t erase or delete past messages. So when you’re blocking an account, that just is meaning that account is not going to be able to keep messaging you, but the child should still be able to look on their phone and see the past messages. 

Angela Kelly: Prior. Okay.

Laura Parker: So yeah, so it won’t delete that. But that is an important thing. You need to make, don’t go through and just automatically, you know the kid’s embarrassed, he’s crying, and you’re automatically…

Angela Kelly: Deleting.  

Laura Parker: …going through and just, let me just delete, because then that is deleting evidence. So yeah, that’s an important…

Angela Kelly: But blocking it just means no longer able to receive future messages from them, but then also letting the phone be as it is so that there is evidence, but you don’t need to be, I think the educator needs to hear. You as the principal, you as the teacher, you as even the district level, you don’t need to be the investigator. That’s where we turn it over to the authorities, but our job is to report it and communicate it, report it, keep the kid safe. 

And then whatever documentation is required from us in whatever protocols your district has, you can follow those in terms of documentation. But when it comes to the actual phone, the actual evidence, that burden is not on your shoulders, but the reporting of it is as a mandatory reporter.

Laura Parker: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that’s really, that is really important because it’s very complicated in this space. It is a new field that people are just catching up with. How to combat? What are the terms? What’s a crime? What’s not a crime? How do we catch them? I think the important thing from an educator’s perspective is just to recognize, yes, you’re a mandated reporter, you need to report that.

But then also just to really, I think sometimes there’s a tendency for us to minimize online exploitation as not as harming as other forms of abuse or exploitation to a child. And it’s really important just to recognize the impacts of, you know, having your picture stolen or feeling like someone is threatening you constantly online. I think the real thing that’s hard to explain is that, you know, when a child is being bullied, let’s take bullying for example, if a child is being bullied in person at the gym class, they have to deal with that for one 45-minute session of a day. 

And it’s horrible and it’s one 45-minute session of a day. But if they are cyberbullied, especially if there’s criminal harassment involved online, and that’s coming to them through all their social media channels, all their gaming platforms, anytime they open their phone with their text, all of their iMessages, then they don’t get away from that at all. So the harm on a child from a mental health capacity is really significant. So it’s important too that educators not minimize how big of a deal it is in a child’s life.

Angela Kelly: Yes. Yes, and I think like how upset I would be if a student of mine came and said this to me. Imagine how you’re feeling and it’s our job to manage our own emotions, which is literally what I do. I help educators manage themselves so that they can help students do the same. But imagine how you’re feeling now, think about what the child’s feeling. That’s why it’s important for us to have those emotional regulation skills to be able to stay neutral, to stay open, to not make comments or to not even get in defensive mode, a protective mode in loving your student and wanting to support them, but staying neutral because you’re holding space for their emotional experience and helping them see you as a safe space. 

And if you aren’t able to regulate, that will not feel safe to the children and they’re not going to come and tell you. They will be like, “Whoa, I totally upset her. She’s feeling her feelings and there’s no space for mine.” So I think it’s really important as triggering as this is to have a child share this with you or to show you something that’s going on and to want to protect and defend them right there on the spot. It’s important for us to maintain that space and that regulation long enough to have the child tell you what they need to tell you. 

If they can let go of that phone and give it to you in order for the authorities to check it, you can have your emotional processing of your own separate and away from the student. So that and that’s hard to do. I understand, I’m I’m recognizing how hard that is, but you can feel those feelings, but keep in mind as a child sharing, it’s really important that they have the floor, they have the space for you to be a safe person, and then you can process separately once they’re done sharing.

Laura Parker: Yeah, absolutely. We were actually chatting with a family here in Colorado and his son, and we have a video on this that I can maybe share in the show notes because they were able to share their story. But his son was 16 years old and accepted a friend request on Instagram from someone he thought was a peer, a attractive other, you know, ninth grader, 10th grader. And he started chatting with her and she eventually sent him inappropriate pictures and asked for some back and so he sent them to her. 

And, well, to the account, and the second he sent those photos, it flipped and this account started harassing him for these gift cards. They wanted these gift cards. And so this kid was just horrified and had three days of just panic and sick to his stomach, trapped feeling. Eventually he was able to tell his mom, they had a really good relationship and the parents got involved and they were able to handle it really, really well. And one of the things that the dad said in his interview was he just talked about how his immediate sense was to rise up and to fight and to lop off heads, you know. 

But just was able to stay calm in that moment and really think about, okay, this what is this like for my child and how do we get him to feel like he’s in a safe place and he can talk about his experience as the center show, you know? And then eventually they were able to go to the FBI and report it and followed up all the right protocols. But I think it’s such a good example because so often, you’re right, Angela, we bring our own anger and responses to the situation, which just really, especially in a situation where the child, in a lot of instances feels like they had something to do to be blamed for it. Like they had some part in the interaction.

Angela Kelly: Yes. That you’re angry with them, right.

Laura Parker: That you’re angry with them. And so, yeah, that emotional regulation. Oh my goodness, is so important, especially in those first moments where someone, when a child comes and is courageous enough and desperate enough maybe to tell you what’s really going on.

Angela Kelly: Yeah. If educators are interested in learning more, creating awareness, where can they go? What do you offer for maybe school leaders or for educators, teachers and programming for students? Can you just let the listeners know where they could go to get more information on this very important topic?

Laura Parker: Yeah, thank you. Yes, we have a federally funded program called Influenced and you can find it at influenced.org. And it’s also it’s connected to our organization, which is theexodusroad.com, so you can also go there and find Influenced. And influenced, we offer parent academies. So we have that online. We also do parent workshops. If you’d like us to come and do either a virtual training or an in-person training depending on where you’re located, to parents around what they should be watching out for. Those are going like crazy. 

And then we also have student programming for kids ages, or grade 6 through 12th. And we have a student curriculum. We’re developing an elementary appropriate curriculum as well right now. And then we also have teacher training. So we have certification programs and then also teacher education and a lot of resources. So over at influenced.org. And I’d love to give you a specific email as well that I’ll include in my show notes that you can email in and we can, our team will be able to direct you.

Angela Kelly: In the right way. Okay, fabulous.

Laura Parker: Yeah, in the right way. So yeah.

Angela Kelly: Wonderful. Any final thoughts, words of wisdom, words of encouragement for our educators out there because they’re entering into a brand new school year, so this may be on their mind, especially given the political climate of all that’s going on, the conversations that are happening just nationally. What are some words you’d like to share with our school leaders out there as they’re joining in for that new year and they’re kicking off a new school year with the kids?

Laura Parker: Yeah, well, first off, I just want to say thank you for what you’re doing.

Angela Kelly: Aw, thank you.

Laura Parker: I feel like teachers and educators are some of the most valuable members in any society and it is a profession that doesn’t get thanked enough. I’m from a family of educators. My mom is a teacher, my sister is a special ed teacher, and the work that they do, that you all do is so valuable. So I just want to say honestly and so sincerely thank you for what you’re doing in the lives of kids and especially vulnerable kids that you come in contact with every day. 

And then I think the second encouragement would just be that I would encourage you just to really consider what does it look like to continue to step in to what it means to really look at the holistic care of a child and the holistic safety of a child. And if the people under your purview in your influence in your school, if those kids are under the umbrella of your care and you’re not talking about digital safety, which is the biggest public health threat towards kids today in America. If you’re not talking about that topic, then you’re not actually, you’re missing a big part of what it means to care for them. 

There’s a lot of different ways that you can address that, but I would just really sincerely encourage you and challenge you to think about what does it look like for you to take a step into the conversation because whether we talk about it or not as adults, kids are dealing with it right now. And they’ll deal with it this school year and the next year and the next year after that. And so I would just encourage you to step into the conversation and think about, okay, what can I do to bring this front and center in my school, in my classroom, and with my colleagues.

Angela Kelly: Yes. And the way that I, when I heard you say that, you know, caring for them holistically, this is holistic education because it is we are simply educating kids on how to stay safe, informing them, giving them information just like we give information on science and math and history and social studies and physical education and taking good care of their bodies and, you know, learning how to handle big emotions. 

This is another form of education. And it’s our job to get more comfortable with it. It’s our job to be informed, which is what you’re doing. You’re helping teachers feel like they feel confident enough and competent enough to be having these conversations. And once you’re there, it becomes just another aspect of teaching and learning.

Laura Parker: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the beauty of normalizing it, right? Like when we can normalize it, then it becomes something that kids feel a lot more safe to come and talk to us about.

Angela Kelly: Right. Yes. And then it just becomes like, this is something we learned like learning to tie our shoes and how to go to the bathroom by ourselves and what to do if you spill your chocolate milk on the floor in the cafeteria, right? And this is, here’s what to do if you feel unsafe while you’re playing your game or online or depending on the age level, like the appropriateness of the conversation, but then it just becomes like, this is yet another thing to learn and another way to be safe. 

So Laura, I’m so grateful that you and your team reached out. I was not aware of your services and again, meeting and greeting with you, just it was a no-brainer to have this conversation. And if we need to have further conversations or further stories need to be shared with educators, feel free to come back to the podcast at any time. And I would love to be in touch with the work that you’re doing and share it with all educators.

Laura Parker: So thank you. Yes, we’ll definitely get you all the links and I just appreciate the conversation and I appreciate your leadership in this space, Angela, just to keep bringing important relevant topics to the forefront.

Angela Kelly: Thank you. Yes, this is wonderful. So that’s it, folks. That’s what we’ve got for you today. Have a beautiful week. Have a safe week. I invite you to look into all of the work that Laura and her team are doing. And it was at influenced.org. We’ll put that all on the show notes, so take a look at that. And we wish you a wonderful week. Take good care. Bye-bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Empowered Principal® Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, please visit AngelaKellyCoaching.com where you can sign up for weekly updates and learn more about the tools that will help you become an emotionally fit school leader.