The Empowered Principal® Podcast Angela Kelly | The Energy Mindset Behind Your Leadership

As leaders, we are constantly shaping the environment around us, and the energy and mindset we bring play a powerful role in the impact we have.

In this episode, I explore what it really means to lead from the inside out. From the concept of leadership energetics to the realities of stepping into new levels of responsibility, I share how your thoughts, emotions, and self-concept influence your decisions, your confidence, and your overall leadership experience.

Whether you’re an aspiring leader, district leader, or site leader, tune in to learn how to recognize the patterns driving your reactions, navigate self-doubt and overwhelm, and lead with intention and self-trust even when the demands feel constant. You will also discover how slowing down, prioritizing effectively, and embracing discomfort can support your growth as a leader.

The Empowered Principal® Collaborative is my latest offer for aspiring and current school leaders who want to create exceptional impact and enjoy the school leadership experience. Join us today to become a member of the only certified life and leadership coaching program for school leaders in the country by clicking here.

What You’ll Learn From this Episode:

  • How your energy mindset shapes your decisions, confidence, and overall leadership experience.
  • Why your thoughts, emotions, and identity directly impact your ability to lead.
  • How to navigate self-doubt, overwhelm, and the discomfort of being new.
  • The importance of slowing down, prioritizing, and managing your time intentionally.
  • How focusing on one meaningful task at a time builds confidence and leadership capacity.

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Full Episode Transcript:

Hello, empowered principals. Welcome to episode 435. 

Welcome to The Empowered Principal® Podcast, a not so typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host, certified life coach Angela Kelly.

Well, hello, my empowered principals, my empowered district leaders, and my empowered aspiring leaders. This one is for you, aspiring leaders. And district leaders and site leaders, listen up too. This is the time of year where we are cultivating our aspiring leaders into leadership positions. We want to encourage them, inspire them, support them. And one of the ways that you can do this is to have them listen to this episode of The Empowered Principal® Podcast.

This episode is a recording, a segment of a recording of a training that I did for aspiring school leaders. Aspiring school leaders, if you want to land a position in school leadership, I have a program specifically designed to help you build up the identity of a school leader, the skillset of interviewing, connecting authentically, and landing a job in school leadership. This is the time of year to become a school principal, or if you’re a school principal and you want to land a job in district leadership, the same concepts apply. So this episode is an excerpt from the Aspiring School Leaders Workshop 2026. Enjoy.

There’s no perfect teacher out there. There’s no perfect leader out there. But we’re moving through this journey together here in the Empowered Principal world. So ground yourself in this desire for growth because it’s going to tether you in moments of stress, confusion, uncertainty, really painful moments. It’ll tether you. This work is hard. It’s hard mentally, but it’s hard emotionally because you’re in the business of people. 

We’re about the humanity here. So you become a leader first for you, then for them, then for the greater good. So I always say, for us, for them, for the greater good. It’s a spinoff of what my coach used to say, for me, for you, for us. But for us as leaders, we have to become a leader, one who leads herself, himself, theirself. We lead ourselves in order to lead them, our staff and students, for the greater good of our families, communities, and all of humanity. 

So this work, the desire to get into this job has to feel good. You have to want it, right? It’s like Rocky. You have to want to get into a ring and get beat up, right? You have to have a desire, a hunger, bringing your talent, your strengths, your brilliance, but also knowing that with you comes those moments of weakness, those areas you don’t feel as strong in, those Achilles heels, right? All of you comes into the ring. But if it’s a calling, if it’s compelling, that tethers you, it grounds you.

And look, anybody can do anything, right? I could go train to be a boxer at the age of 55. I could go do that, but I don’t want to do that. So I’m not compelled to do it. So it would not be fun for me. It would not be a goal. I wouldn’t sustain that goal. I wouldn’t pursue it. And even if I pursued it for a hot minute, it wouldn’t last because I don’t have the desire. It has to be fulfilling. It has to be something you want to do.

So there’s something beyond the skill of being a leader. So many people come into my program and they’re like, “I want to know how to do this job. How do I do this job? Just tell me what to do and I’ll do it.”

With all of the love and respect and grace, I offer you this. When you become a leader, and you’ve been a leader before, so we’re going to tap into the parts of you that have already been a leader. You’ve led yourself through college, you’ve led yourself to learn your classroom. You have been a leader in your classroom for yourself and your students and for families. 

But when you say, “Just tell me how to be a leader,” that’s not what leadership is. The energetics of leadership matter. And what are the energetics of leadership? I’m going to talk about this a lot. It’s not something you hear very often, so I want to be direct in what this means, what I’m referring to when I say this.

The energetics of leadership, it’s the energy that is fueling your decisions and your actions. It’s emotional energy. It’s like when you drive up to a gas station for your car and you have choices of fuel. It’s the fuel that you put in the car. It’s how you feel about yourself, the thoughts you think about yourself, your identity, what you believe you are and are not, how you feel about your ability to lead, to be a leader.

Now, if you’re aspiring, you’re feeling like, “I have the capacity to lead.” That’s great. You’re feeling good about yourself. And then you’ll get into the position and part of your leadership energy is going to be the thoughts and feelings you have about those that you’re leading. You’re going to have opinions about certain staff members. You’re going to have thoughts and feelings about certain families, about certain policies that the district has, certain procedures, certain things they want you to do, initiatives. You’re going to have feelings about those, fuel going in. 

You’re going to have thoughts about your influence and impact, your capacity to create influence and impact. You’re going to have thoughts and feelings about the vision you have for your school. Do I have a vision? Am I leading the vision? Am I somewhere in the middle? Am I in the back cleaning up all the messes that people leave behind? Where am I in this vision? Am I leading it? Ooh, that feels kind of scary, doesn’t it, to think that? I’m leading the pack. I’m leading the circus.

And how do you feel about your capacity to handle anything that comes your way in school leadership? This is the energetics. This is what matters. This is the difference between two leaders who got trained at the same school with the same teachers in the same way, got the same credential, have two very different experiences. It’s just little differences, what they think, what they feel, how they perceive things, their perception, their, you know, ability to look through different lenses, like you know, look through all the facets, look through all the angles, consider different ways of thinking and being.

Energetics is just running the show. And I just, the easiest way I can explain it is that if you were a car and you pull up to the gas station, there’s different octane levels, there’s ethanol, there’s diesel. Which gasoline is the most ideal for you? 

Everybody thinks they want premium, but there are some cars that have to run on diesel. And you put premium in them, they shut down. Or if you use ethanol in a car that’s not equipped to handle ethanol, it doesn’t work. It shuts it down. It’s not that one’s better than the other, it’s which is the right energetics for you, which is the right fuel, the right thoughts, the right feelings, the right mindset for you.

So we all have a vision of what school leadership will look and feel like. And there’s the expectations that we have, what we think it’s going to be like in anticipation, and then the reality of what it actually is. And I know for me, there was a gap in what I thought it would look and feel like and what it actually was.

So people tend to go in one of two ways. They kind of go to all-or-none thinking. So on my end, it was like, it’s going to be great. I’m going to have so much more flexibility. I’m going to have so much more influence and say in what goes on. And I’m going to fix all these things that aren’t working for teachers. I’m going to fix it all. I had just this very sunshiny energy.

It’s like thinking about vacation. When you’re thinking about going on vacation, you’re just thinking about all the happy stuff and how you’re going to feel and how good it’s going to be. You’re not thinking about the potential of a flight delay or losing your luggage or the hotel room’s not ready or you’re taking your kids to Disneyland and they’re going to have a major meltdown right when they’re meeting Mickey Mouse and the pictures got ruined. You don’t think about that stuff. You think about the happy stuff. That’s one side. 

Other people tend to think about all that could go wrong because they want to be prepared. What if the plane gets delayed? What are we going to do? What’s going to happen if the hotel sucks when we get there? What’s going to happen if we can’t get an Uber if they don’t have Uber services? What’s going to happen if the kids melt down?

So you can see on one end, it’s like ignorance is bliss. It’s so happy and you’re expecting good things. And a lot of times good things happen when you expect them to happen because you’re in alignment with the good things happening. That’s where I tend to lean. And there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be prepared so that your trip does go as smoothly as possible.

However, this, when you’re all daisies and roses, you can get severely blindsided when you step into school leadership, which is what happened to me. I was smacked in the face at the reality, and it was harsh. And it made me go into a identity spiral. I call these identity quakes. We’re going to talk about this in a minute, but like I spun out of control. “What have I done? This is terrible. I’m not good at this. I’m not cut out for this. I can’t do this job.” Like this is just, “I got to go back to the kindergarten classroom.”

But then I felt all this shame and embarrassment and guilt because I felt I was failing. I felt like something had really gone wrong. My nervous system completely short-wired, dysregulated, and I had a hard, hard time my first two years. And because of that and because I didn’t know how to get into the energetics of leadership, I got a coach is what ended up happening, but I was really spinning. 

I did not serve my first school to the best of my capacity because I was so caught up in how I felt and the disillusionment. That’s why I’m bringing it up. I want to bring you into the land of and. So it’s not all sunshine and daisies, but it’s not all doom and gloom.

Over here, you have the person who doesn’t ever really go into school leadership because they want to, but they got to know this and that and what if this happens? And I don’t know how I’m going to handle that. So I got to prepare. And they overanalyze and they overthink and they just, they already got to talk themselves out of it and they’re never quite ready. Maybe next year, maybe one more year. Maybe I’ll just go and they ease in.

But in the land of and, where you understand that it’s a 50/50 experience no matter what, then you think, “Okay, these hard things are going to happen, but I’ve got the capacity to handle them when they come. I don’t need to know everything now.” These people be like, “I trust that this is going to be an amazing experience, and I know there will also be hard times and I can handle it when they come up, right?”

Sometimes we romanticize leadership. I’m going to have so much more time and flexibility and power and I can come and go. I thought all the things, right? I thought it was going to be, you know, when you view the principal, just like she gets to be out of the classroom. Like I felt like, “I want to go to the bathroom midday. Like I don’t want to have to wait till lunch.” Must be so nice to just sit in meetings. It must be so nice. 

And then I got into it, right? Other people are like, “I would never do that. It is the worst job in the world. Can’t handle it.” This person’s not going to make it and this person’s not going to make it unless they go into the land of and.

And here’s what I want to tell you. I don’t want to break your heart, but I do want to set you up for success. Being a principal, or if you’re aspiring to be a district leader, being in a leadership position of any capacity, it’s not better than not being in it. It’s just different. 

So as a teacher, you have great days, exceptional days. This is like, this is why I went into teaching. Best day ever. And you have the hardest, most heartbreaking, heart-wrenching, horrible, no good, very bad days where you’re like, “Why? I’m leaving education. This is horrible. Nothing works. The kids are terrible, whatever. And we’re never going to do it again. We’re going to go sell lattes at a local coffee shop or we’re going to run to the beach and make Mai Tais,” right? We want to get away. Exceptional, exceptionally hard, teaching.

School leadership, you have exceptional days. You’re like, “Oh, that is exactly how I thought it would feel. It’s amazing.” And you’re going to have heart-wrenching, heartbreaking, no good, very bad days. And you’re going to wonder why you ever stepped into school leadership. It’s 50/50, folks, whether you’re a teacher, a site leader, a district leader, whether you’re a homemaker, whether you’re in corporate. 

But if you can align to, that’s why I said, when you can align to the calling, the mission, it doesn’t, the hard days, you accept them as part of the mission, as part of the calling. This is the work I want to do even on the hard days. 

It’s like parenting. Even on the hardest of days when you’re like, motherhood, fatherhood, parenthood, I don’t know about this, but you would never, right? We love our babies still, even on the heartbreaking days, the days they graduate and leave us, the day they, you know, get their first tooth and you’re like, “Oh, I like that toothless grin,” right? We romanticize our lives or we catastrophize them. Empowerment brings you back to the land of and, okay?

So why should we even dip our toe in leadership? Why are we going here? It’s because as humans, we are wired for growth. We are wired for evolution. This is why we’re in the business of education. We loved it. We loved learning and growing. Most educators liked school. Even though school could be greatly improved, we loved school as kids. We loved playing teacher. You probably played school outside of school, right?

Okay. Why we do this? Humans are wired for growth, for evolution, not stagnancy. They don’t want to just sit around and do the same thing, Groundhog’s Day for 50 years. You want to get out. You want to learn how to surf or you want to go mountain biking or you want to learn how to crochet or you want to learn how to create beautiful meals or you want to learn how to communicate better or you want to learn how to play guitar or you, whatever. 

There’s a bazillion endless things you can learn and grow, personally, professionally, doesn’t matter. We’re not wired for stagnancy. We’re wired to be alive, to be engaged, to enjoy this opportunity of life that we have.

And if you think about being new, I love this part. All of us were new at some point. Everything we’ve ever experienced was new at some point. Learning how to drink from a glass without spilling used to be really hard. Have you seen a toddler or a very elderly person struggle with this? Everything was new at some point. 

And when we were little, I have, one of my closest friends has babies. She’s got a four-year-old and a nine-month-old. He’ll be turning four. But I love watching them because I’m not the mother, so I have a degree of separation. I can observe them in just pure joy and just observe them being little humans without all of the world’s worries on their shoulders.

Everything is new at some point. They love it. They explore it. They embrace new things. Everything for them, they’re excited, they giggle, they’re happy, they’re interesting. Oh, it’s just divine joy to see children learning, which is why we’re in the field, whether you are teaching littles or you’re teaching way up to the big kids, the big adults, right? You could be teaching at a university level. But those freshmen, it’s new. 

And when we’re little, we love being new. We love the excitement. And then as we grow older and we get more self-conscious, and then we have social pressures and opinions that, you know, come in and encroach on our learning and our being new. We didn’t, used to not care what it looked like and as we get older, we start to care. We start to not want to be new. I don’t want to go. I’m taking dance classes right now, and I feel myself, like we go and we practice at my friend’s house on Monday nights, but then we go to the class on Wednesday nights.

And I feel so much pressure because these people are good dancers. I got into an intermediate class and I had no business. But I’m doing it so I could go with my friends. So she teaches me all the things, the steps, and then I go and I fuddle around. I feel the discomfort of being new.

But what I decided to do was apply my own thought process and my own concepts to that class. So I go in and I’m like, “Yep, I’m brand new. Yep, I’m just learning. Yes, I am a brand new intermediate. So I am an intermediate, but I’m new at being intermediate. I’m not an advanced intermediate. I’m not an intermediate intermediate. I am a new intermediate.” 

But I’m going to just come in with puppy dog energy and have fun and smile and laugh and thank people. I only had one out of like, I don’t know, 12 or 14 partners because you change partnerships. Only one that was kind of grumpy. “Remember to count. Remember.” “Okay, thank you for the feedback.” One, two, three, four, five. Trying to remember to count while I’m also remembering to move my body in the right way and follow the leader’s cues.

So when we’re little and there’s no pressures, we’re just compelled. We’re just exploring. So what we want to do as leaders is we want to remember as adults to embrace being new, embrace new things with the enthusiasm of a child, but also with the patience of a mature adult. Sometimes we will avoid putting ourselves in situations, and the older we get, the less, you know, flexible we are with that, the less amenable we are to learning new things. We’re like, “I just do it my way.” We don’t want to look clumsy, we don’t want to look awkward.

This is something I am really embracing this year, just putting myself in situations that are new, that are different, going to different places, trying different things, going to actual classes where I am clumsy, I am awkward, I am new, nobody knows me, I don’t know them, and I feel those emotions inside my body. I worry about what others will think. This is going to happen to you. 

You’re going to get hired either into your own school district or another one and you’re not going to know what the heck you’re doing. And you’re going to think about what are others thinking about me. “I’m embarrassed. I feel silly. I don’t know.” You know, “I feel awkward. I don’t like this feeling in my body. It’s so crunchy. Ugh.” But if you come in knowing you’re new, embracing being new, letting that new energy be infectious, take it in stride. Just have fun with it.

As adults, when we get in, especially a leadership role, there’s something that’s like, “Oh, well, now that I’m a leader, I’m expected to just walk in and know.” And here’s what’s crazy. I basically got hired, here are your keys, a brand new principal at a brand new school, brand new construction, wasn’t even finished on day one. We had plumbing issues, the kitchen wasn’t done, we had to do sack lunches for the kids. I’m telling you, hot mess express. I was a brand new principal. I had no idea what I was doing. 

Thank goodness for a very skilled and seasoned secretary who basically ran the show and told me what to do and where to focus on, right, and what to prioritize. And then I stepped into like after that first year, I really started to embrace like, okay, my identity as the leader and I would work with her, but we became like co-leaders. And then I moved to another school. 

But as adults, it is very uncomfortable to be new because they’re like, “Here are the keys, you’re now the leader, know everything, do everything, be everything. Have a great day.” So you’re like, “Wait a minute, I’m supposed to know this?” And then the minute you don’t know something or the minute you misspeak or misstep or misunderstand or miscommunicate, “I’m flawed. I’ve done something wrong. I’m not cut out. I’m not the right fit. This isn’t the right school for me.” Your brain just goes off. It starts to tell you all these things. “Go back to teaching.”

I just want you to know you’re going to feel discomfort when you get into school leadership. Nothing’s gone wrong. You’re right on track. This part’s uncomfortable. Just tell yourself that. “Today, I’m feeling really new, feeling really clumsy, feeling a little awkward, pretty vulnerable. It’s a tough feeling, but I’m here for it. I’ve got this. It was hard to be a new teacher, and now it’s hard to be a new principal. And today I’m having a hard day.”

Being new at anything is hard. It’s clumsy. Just know that you’re not going to know. This discomfort that you feel, I call it just kind of crunchy inside where you’re like, “Ugh, cringy.” That’s the emotion that accompanies growth, evolution, and success, right?

So when you get into school leadership, you’re going to feel doubt. There will be the emotion, the fuel that goes into your body one day when you go to the gas station of life is doubt. You’re like, “Okay, I got this job. Now what? I don’t know.” You feel excited and you’re like, “Somebody tell me what to do,” but they’re going to expect you to lead. 

So you’re in this little quandary here, like, “What do I do?” Well, you’re going to have to take action in doubt. You’re going to have to allow yourself to feel like, “I’m not sure what I’m doing. I’m not sure if this is the right decision. And I feel doubtful, and I’ve got to make this decision. I’ve got to take this action.” Let yourself feel doubtful. 

And some days, yes, you’re going to go home, there will be water leaking out of your eyes many days on your drive home or when you get home. Just know tears will come. It’s okay. Cry it out. The tears won’t hurt you. That actually releases emotion. It’s a very good thing. When you are really in doubt and you’re in an overwhelm cycle, just acknowledge it. Be kind to yourself. But don’t think something’s gone wrong. There’s a difference.

I’m feeling this way today and it’s a normal part of the process versus I’m feeling this way today and something’s gone wrong and I need to fix this now. That’s accepting and allowing the emotion, the fuel that went in the tank for the day versus trying to like spit it out and avoid the emotion or stopping the car altogether, halting. But here’s the thing. You can always let the fuel run through, feel the doubt, feel all the feels, and then refuel. Okay, now what? Go back and get the right gas.

Overwhelm is going to happen. It’s okay. Literally, in school leadership, there is too much to do and not enough time. It’s a mathematical certainty. Just like the Titanic sinking, as the guy said, it is a certainty. It’s a mathematical certainty that there is too much to do and not enough time. So we don’t have to argue with ourselves or try to convince other people that there is too much to do as a school leader or a district leader and there’s not enough time. We know that because people want us to solve the world’s problems as educators, right? So we know this without a doubt.

But the sooner you realize that the demands are always going to outweigh what you can physically accomplish, then you just start to accept, “I’m going to need to plan this out. I’m going to need to prioritize. Sometimes I’m going to have to triage. Sometimes there’s going to be wipeout days. But I’m also going to learn to constrain myself. I’m not going to try and solve all the problems. I’m not going to buy into whack-a-mole, putting out fires, and I’m going to allow myself to accurately delegate.” 

Which is an entire skill that I teach, how to delegate, how to onboard, how to teach someone before you… all of the onboarding stuff, all of the delegation stuff. Like those are critical parts of, those are the skill sets, but it’s also part of mindset when it comes to being a highly, highly effective school leader. 

So these are things that most principals don’t want to do. They don’t want to make decisions when they’re feeling doubt. They want to wait until they feel certainty. That delays, it stagnates. They don’t want to delegate because they want to make sure they do it themselves and get it done right the first time, right? 

They don’t want to have to prioritize because everything feels like a priority, especially in your first year. It’s just fire hose coming at you. What do I do? You have to learn the skill of slowing down. But in order to learn the skill of slowing down, you have to have the mindset that it’s okay to slow down.

So this is why I talk about mindset over skill set because you can’t create the skill set, the practice, the things that you do without the mindset of who you have to be. 

That it’s okay to slow down, that it’s safe to slow down, that it will be better for you and your school if you take the time to slow down to plan, to prepare, to think, to constrain, to prioritize, to learn, to come to, you know, one of my other programs, like to be in a program, to be at the table like this where you slow down for an hour a week and you have these conversations around mindset to get you in the place to then create the skill set. They go hand in hand.

So your mind will want to indulge in overwhelm. “I’m so overwhelmed.” Brand new leaders, it’s a thing. Overwhelm’s actually a thing. You’re going to want to indulge in that. You’re going to want to swim around and you’re going to feel sorry for yourself because there’s so much to do. Mathematical certainty, there’s too much to do and not enough time. 

Now what? What do we want to do? We want to respond with prioritization, constraint, and slowing down. But what we do is we react. We tend to like, go work, overwork, overschedule, overexert, over plan. We just crunch too much in and then we’re frustrated that we planned all these things and nothing got done.

So just be careful if overwhelm starts to become the excuse that you don’t have the time because that will become an identity. “I’m the school principal who never has enough time. There’s too much to do, not enough time. I don’t have the time. I don’t manage my time. I don’t prioritize my time because I don’t have time to do all of that. I don’t have time. There’s not enough time.” 

Your relationship with time will erode your capacity to lead. You have to build a healthy relationship with time. That is an entire mastery course that I teach. And in EPC, which is the Empowered Principal Collaborative, we talk about time all of the time because your relationship with time really really matters.

A leader who identifies themself as busy. “I’m so busy. It’s been a busy week. I’m really busy. There’s a lot on my plate.” This story, this identity of a leader who’s always busy, you will forever feel busy and overwhelmed. If that’s the story you choose, if that’s the title of your book, the title of your career, the identity that you embody, you’ll forever be busy. 

And here’s where people get a little bit gray on this. Busy does not mean productive. I can remember trying to look busy so that people thought I was being a productive principal. So silly. I wanted to be very busy. And I thought, gosh, if I had any downtime, I must be doing something wrong, right?

So, here’s my invitation. The solution to overwhelm is this. When you start to feel it, you’ll know. You’ll feel it in your body. Tune in and say to yourself like, “I’m not too busy to slow down.” Because if you start saying, “Oh my God, I’m so busy. I’m really slammed. I’m overwhelmed,” it’s the fuel you’re putting in the tank. You want to put a different octane in. 

Take a breath, slow down, break your tasks down. What’s the one thing you want to get done today? If you could walk out of the door with one thing being done today, what is it? That’s where planning mastery, time mastery, balance mastery programs, all of these programs in EPC, which is the Empowered Principal Collaborative, I’ve created them because it’s the mix of the mindset plus the skill set, who to be and how to apply. Okay?

So for people who feel overloaded, even for the most enthusiastic of extroverts, you’re going to experience people overload because you’re in the business of people all day long. So you’ve got kids coming at you, teachers, staff members, parents, community members, school board, district level, county, state, whatever, office staff, your, you know, psychology, counseling staff, nursing staff, custodial staff, cafeteria staff members, transportation, technology. 

You’re going to have days where you’re like, “No more people, please. No, thank you.” You’ll be tired of dealing with people. I’m pretty extroverted. I like people, but I have a limit. I’m just like, “Don’t want to deal with people today,” right?

It’s energy, right? They’re filling their tanks and they’re coming at you and some of them are like, “Ah.” Other people are calm, some people are very insistent, some people are aggressive. There’s a lot of energy that you’re holding space for. 

So there’s going to be their energy, their requests, their personalities, their quirks, their demands, right, what they want, their opinions. They all want your time and attention. It gets annoying. You get overloaded. Again, nothing’s gone wrong. You’re a human. And some days you have more capacity for it than others. You’re just going to be in tune with that capacity. So when you start to feel annoyed, irritated, impatient, again, slowing down, give yourself permission to take a break.

I cannot emphasize enough the power of stopping and taking a few deep breaths to reregulate yourself because your brain will go on autopilot, your body goes on autopilot, and then your identity becomes reacting versus responding. You want to give yourself some permission to close that office door if you have one and get some alone time. Just a few minutes can make a big difference to gather yourself. Or if somebody’s really set you off, you might need to be angry for a few minutes or to cry for a few minutes and then reply.

The slowing down, the permission, the identity of like, “I’m a human too. I’m a principal and I’m a human. I’m a district leader and I’m a human, and I have human emotions,” expands your capacity, expands your perspective. Just separate yourself from them. And this is where I talk about relationship and communication mastery in EPC.

Okay, this one is for the brand new leaders. And sometimes we have imposter syndrome even as veterans because there’s always something we don’t know. We’re like, wait a minute. I’ve been doing this job. I tell this story all the time, but Dr. Crates was one of my favorite principals. She had been doing site leadership. This was her 19th year. I think I was in like my third or fourth year. 

And I said to her, “Dr. Crates, when does this ever get easier?” And she looks at me, this tall, thin woman, she had presence, she had power. She was an empowered principal, like the poster child of empowerment. She just put her hands on her hips, she said, “Honey, it never gets easier. What are you talking about?”

When she said that, she kind of laughed and she said, “That’s what I love about it. I love it. I love it’s always different. I love this and I love that.” And I literally felt the burning of tears coming like “What is she saying to me right now? This never gets easier? Oh my gosh, I don’t think I can do this.” And I had a moment of complete imposter syndrome, complete inefficiency. I felt so inefficient. I was watching her just be a powerhouse. I felt completely incompetent, compare and despairing. Yes, I know. 

But in the moment, like I just wanted to be like her. She made it look so easy. She made it look like flow. She made it look fun. She looked like she was enjoying herself. And I was like, “I want that,” because I was spinning out in my head. “I’m not good enough. Nobody likes me. What are people thinking? I can’t do this. I don’t know that. I thought I was going to have power. I don’t have power. This is worse. This is worse…” I just, you know, so in my head about me.

But the more that you become aware of who you are and how you’re feeling, your identity, if you get stuck and spinning on that, you’re going to get stuck in an overwhelm cycle that’s like a merry-go-round and it’s going to make you sick to your stomach. 

The bouts of insufficiency and incompetency will paralyze you from leading because the power thought will be like, “I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m not sure how to handle this. I don’t know what to do. I’m not enough.” It’s an insufficient feeling. No matter what you’re doing, it’s like, “I’m not being enough. I’m not trying hard enough. I don’t know enough.”

What is the solution to insufficiency? For me, and for the clients that I serve, you can’t do it all. Too much to do and not enough time. It’s a mathematical certainty. You can’t do everything, but you can do anything, any one thing. Focus on one thing at a time. 

When you get one thing done, you feel accomplished. It gives you a notch in your belt in terms of sufficiency, of competency. “Maybe I didn’t get these other eight things done, but I got this done.” Every time you do the one thing, you expand your capacity. One, you’re expanding your capacity no matter what, but you will feel more accomplished, your identity will evolve. This is what leadership mastery is. This is the leadership energetics I’m talking about. It’s the balance of doing and being.

So right now, as we’re sitting here together in this webinar, you have a current self-identity. You have a self-concept about who you are. I want you to think for a minute about your character traits. You believe certain things that you are, you believe certain things you’re not. “I am this, I am not that. I can do this, I can’t do that. These are my strengths, these are my weaknesses. This is what I’m capable of. This is what I can and cannot do. This is what I can and cannot handle. This is what I can and cannot learn.” You have a certain identity right now.

And it’s funny, we’ll introduce ourselves based on who we believe we are. Like when we meet somebody for the first time, we’re going to say, “Oh, I’m a brand new principal. Oh, hi, nice to meet you. Tell me what to do.” Or we come in, “Hi, I’m the principal of Sunnyside Elementary School. Pleasure to meet you.” Confident, calm, assured, empowered. You can do that in your first year or you can do that in your 10th year. “Hi, I’m the new principal at Sunnyside Elementary School. What a pleasure to meet you.” 

You might identify as being too young for the job or maybe too veteran. “Nobody likes me,” or “Nobody knows me.” Experienced. “Hi,” you know, “I’ve been doing this job for 10 years.” Or, “Ugh, I have no idea what’s going on here. I’m brand new.” We talk about this. Our identity comes through in our interactions with other humans, right? We tell people, “I’m good at this, not good at that. I know how to do this, not that.” Your identity has a direct impact on your capacity to lead. Whether you think you can or you can’t, you’re right.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Empowered Principal® Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, please visit AngelaKellyCoaching.com where you can sign up for weekly updates and learn more about the tools that will help you become an emotionally fit school leader.

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The Empowered Principal® Podcast Angela Kelly | How to Recognize and Prevent Burnout in Schools with Jasmin Dennis

Burnout in schools is a real and growing concern, and as leaders, it’s important to not only recognize the signs but also to prevent it from taking hold.

In this episode, I’m joined by Jasmin Dennis, a burnout expert who shares her insights on identifying, preventing, and addressing burnout in schools. Together, we explore how burnout manifests for both educators and school leaders, how it affects the school environment, and why it’s essential to take proactive steps toward prevention before it’s too late.

Tune in to discover strategies for building resilience, setting healthy boundaries, and creating a supportive culture in your school that fosters well-being and long-term success. Whether you’re experiencing burnout yourself or leading a team that’s feeling the pressure, this episode is packed with actionable advice you can start implementing right away.

The Empowered Principal® Collaborative is my latest offer for aspiring and current school leaders who want to create exceptional impact and enjoy the school leadership experience. Join us today to become a member of the only certified life and leadership coaching program for school leaders in the country by clicking here.

What You’ll Learn From this Episode:

  • How to recognize the early signs of burnout in schools.
  • The impact of burnout on both staff, students, and school leaders.
  • Practical strategies to prevent burnout before it becomes a crisis.
  • The importance of setting boundaries and prioritizing self-care as a leader.
  • How to create a supportive school culture that reduces burnout risk.
  • Why it’s essential to address burnout head-on to maintain a healthy work environment.

Listen to the Full Episode:

Featured on the Show:

Episodes Related to Burnout in Schools:

Full Episode Transcript:

Hello, empowered principals. Welcome to episode 434. 

Welcome to The Empowered Principal® Podcast, a not so typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host, certified life coach Angela Kelly.

Well, hello, my empowered principals. Happy Tuesday and enjoy this interview with Jasmin Dennis. She’s an expert on burnout. I think you’ll enjoy the show.

Angela Kelly: Well, hello, empowered principals. Happy Tuesday and welcome to the podcast. I have a very special guest here with me today. You’re going to love this conversation because it’s something we all talk about in education and that is burnout. And we’re going to dive into all kinds of things related to the conversation around burnout, what it is, the symptoms, the signs, what to look for, what it isn’t. And I have an expert here with me on the topic of burnout. 

Her name is Jasmin Dennis. She works with corporations, schools, all kinds of organizations around this topic of burnout. So we want to look at it from all the facets and all the different angles so that you can really identify when you’re feeling burnout. We can talk about what it is, and I also really want to help you with her expertise on how to notice it and what to do because there’s some interesting ways that burnout manifests. And Jasmin was sharing this with me in our meet and greet and I can’t wait for her to share it with you. So, Jasmin, welcome to the podcast.

Jasmin Dennis: Oh, Angela, thank you so much for having me. I’m happy to be here.

Angela Kelly: Yes, so Jasmin and I met through a meet and greet. She reached out and wanted to be on the podcast to support all educators and I thought, let’s do this. It’s an amazing topic. She’s a lovely woman. She has lots of expertise. So, Jasmin, tell us a little bit about your background and what you’re currently doing to serve organizations.

Jasmin Dennis: Yeah, well, you know I’ve been in the health and wellness space for over 30 years. Maybe I started when I was two. 

Angela Kelly: Good for you. 

Jasmin Dennis: So it’s in my blood, it’s in my bone, it’s passion. I’ve been directly involved in getting started in about 20 health and wellness facilities, and within those locations and including four for the former heavyweight champion of the world. And so in those scenarios, you know  I was exposed like one-on-one to individuals coming in and, you know, in our facilities and they would say different things, you know, I didn’t sleep last night. I haven’t slept in four days or I feel so lethargic today. Oh, I don’t feel like going to work. So it’s a continued pattern.

But where it really grounded me and started me to really think now, you know, that we’re not living to our optimum health. So I was Workers’ Compensation Board and I noticed, you know, like Mondays, everybody hated Mondays for some reason. I love Mondays, maybe to get, you know, as a mother and kids and you know getting out of the house Monday was great for me, you know? 

Angela Kelly: Yes.

Jasmin Dennis: Got the kids to school and what, you know, and stuff like that. So, I noticed also a pattern of people would do anything not to go to work, regardless of the, you know, whether they were in school, whether they’re teachers, whether they’re educators, whether they’re corporate, and it started to turn in my head that there’s something here. We are operating not at our optimal, really.

So that spun off into me working closely, you know, in the health and wellness space with, you know, chiropractors, physiotherapists. And the way we would set it up is that I’ll have a conversation with an individual. And it doesn’t matter, and I’m not in the education space, but they’re humans. Teachers are humans like everything else.

Angela Kelly: Yes. 

Jasmin Dennis: Yeah. Our profession doesn’t design how we feel in our bodies. So when I speak, and I speak about to kids, I speak to adults because we are human and this burnout shows up in subtle ways. It almost becomes a buzzword.

Angela Kelly: Mhm, I agree. Yes.

Jasmin Dennis: Urgency is a form of burn, can turn into burnout. So I noticed, it’s, you know, it’s just like a buzzword and people would say, oh, I’m burnt out and they would go along until something really happens. So I decided to, JAZZD Health and Wellness is a company that helps organization go in and really ask the hard questions. 

Angela Kelly: Mhm. 

Jasmin Dennis: You know, what do you want for your organization? How do you see your staff showing up? When they come in, you know, in the morning, if it’s a mother, are they tired? At school, how do your kids come back from school and how do they feel? Is it that they might, you know, feel some kind of attention, you know? Teachers are expected to be superhumans. 

Angela Kelly: Mhm, yes. 

Jasmin Dennis: They’re expected to be the mother, the father, the caretaker, the psychologist, and everything. So, you want to almost kind of, you know, gear it, how was your day today? And most people don’t ask their kids, how was your day today, you know? We know to go to school and, you know, teach your presentation day and bring a gift to the teacher at the end of the year, but do we really touch base with them during the year and find out how can I support you?

So when I speak to the corporations, I dive right down to the individuals. What is your profession? What is your profession? What is your profession? And I tailor the group. If it’s a, if it’s, if I’m addressing teachers, then I tailor the teachers to say, you know what? You might be often overlooked by the parents that bring the kids in because you’re going through something and they’re going through something at work. 

And so we have to meet in the middle and so we’re almost using our children in the middle as a go-between to kind of test the waters. So I always say to the educators, you know, when you see the child comes in, touch base, see how they react, and then I ask the parents, how do your child react when they come home? 

So I’ve come from a background of wellness, Angela, and I just want to see everybody healthy. I think I might have gone around in a circle there and do the whole just to give you a synopsis of where I, you know, how I see and how the burnout comes in. And I’ll delve deeper into burnout and how to recognize it.

Angela Kelly: Sure. That’s a beautiful introduction because it gives us a broad perspective of all of the facets that you work with. When it comes to, you know, I have been discussing this often on the podcast is the humanity behind education and that, you know, our students are humans and our teachers and support staff are humans and we as leaders are humans. And that is what comes first. 

That is the priority and that’s the lens through which we need to have these conversations around not just academic success, but success as a human. Part of that is wellness, feeling well, feeling good about yourself, having a strong identity, feeling capable, feeling loved, appreciated, wanted, feeling like you matter, feeling respected, feeling safe is a real core foundation. 

So the wellness industry can mean, it’s very general, right? It can mean a lot of things. And what I hear you saying is that you’re helping organizations have conversations at an individual level. 

So an individual, what they walk away with is some introspection around what’s working well in their life, what isn’t well in their life, and how can they close that gap and bring more wellness to their life, whether it is at home with their relationships at home, whether it’s with parenting and with their kids or with their partner or spouse, whether it’s at work with relationships relating to their colleagues or their bosses, or whether that is the relationship that parents have with their child’s teacher. 

And that relationship is so precious because your babies as parents are going to these individuals who care so deeply, they care so deeply and they work so hard and they’re being tasked with, you know, the goal, the mission really in education, what we’re being told as educators is to fix it all, do it all. You know, like put society on our shoulders, educate them all, make them successful, help them with their academics, their intellect, but they’re also their physical skills, their emotional regulation, their mental wellbeing, their socialization. And that’s a lot of pressure on the educator. 

And mom and dad are feeling lots of pressure at home. So we’re trying to see each other. And that’s what you said so beautifully is that you’re helping, you know, corporate moms and dads see their teachers at a humanity level and here at this podcast, like it’s educators wanting to see parents at a humanity level and working together in collaboration to raise these little ones here. Yeah? 

Jasmin Dennis: Oh, absolutely. You said it beautifully again. You know, the World Health Organization in 2019 at Davos, Switzerland, categorized, you know, burnout as an occupational phenomenon. It’s real. It is chronic stress that has not been addressed and it just weaves into the fabric. I chose burnout as opposed to, and I’m very passionate about burnout because it can disguise itself in so many ways. 

And that’s one of the reasons I developed the Burnout Pie Framework so that you can look at it at a glance. You know, I want people to visualize it in their home. If it was in everybody’s home and in every school board, to visualize the Burnout Pie Framework and it could be the beginning of burnout, it could be deep in it. 

For instance, if I were to say to you, you know, Angela, I know you love apple pie and I’m going to give you this beautiful apple pie and you’re going to be very thankful for this beautiful pie. But if you ate it, if you consume that pie, right, all at once, no matter how much you love it, you’re going to feel sick. You’re going to have a tummy ache and you’re going to wish you hadn’t, you know, you hadn’t consumed that pie. 

And the reason I do, you know, the pie chart of the Burnout Pie Framework is because you are going to see each, it is divided in eight dimensions, eight slices that gives you burnout. 

And when I do a presentation or corporation, and I put the burnout pie up there and I say to them, you know, this is the burnout pie. If you were to feel all of those feelings and emotions at once, you can’t function. And most people walk around with all eight slices of the pie, it’s sleeplessness, it’s depression, it’s anxiety, it’s hopelessness, detachment. All of that they’re walking around with. And, you know, people figure burnout, it’s not, it’s not a breakdown. It’s a signal. 

Burnout is a signal because under each slice of the pie, you can go deeper and deeper to see the hidden stressors that shows up in three nights sleep. Most people say, oh, maybe if I go to bed early. But then you go to bed early and you still didn’t sleep. Or you feel anxious all day long and you probably figure, I’m just anxious. So what happens is that one thing leads to the other. The sleeplessness leads to the exhaustion. The exhaustion leads to the irritability. And you see that manifest. 

You see people and you know, they say, oh, I’m just so sorry. I’m just so irritable today. I was on a phone call just two days ago with my phone provider because I’m so versed into picking up when someone is exhibiting these traits that, you know, I kind of stop and I paused and I said, sir, I don’t want to interrupt you, but you know, you’re in, you know, do you realize that you’re kind of, from your tone, I’m not accusing you of anything, how do you feel yourself coming across explaining this to me? And he paused and I said, is your shoulders up? Or you feel tight? You know, whatever. 

Because it’s not about me. It’s not about me that’s happening. It’s about what is playing in the background. So every day, you know, when someone apologizes to you over and over, has nothing to do with you. You know, it’s I mean, Don Miguel Ruiz, you know, said once, you know, it has nothing to do in the Four Agreements. It’s not about me. So I take, when I wake up in the morning, I check myself. I want to see how I feel. 

And every day, I’m not like, ooh, you know, I’m not feeling any of these. But the urgency that plays in a lot of people’s lives, they jump, they wake up and the alarm and I don’t use alarm. I train my body not to use alarm because of what it can, you know, and the alarm… they jump out of bed and they run to the shower and run to the coffee machine and they run to work and there’s deadlines to be done. And that is one of the things that shows up as the hidden stressor of burnout. You are constantly on the run. 

So when I wake up, if I haven’t slept well the night before, I sit down for like a couple minutes to myself. I take some deep breaths and I figure, okay, what’s going on here, Jasmin? You know, what’s going on here? You tossed and turned all last night. And I play over my day. And it could be something that I picked up the day earlier that someone said to me that didn’t sit well with me that I took to bed with me. So I train people to, for instance, to not look at your irritability as just that I’m having a bad day and I need my coffee. 

So in the burnout pie, individually, you know, I’ll say there’s a survey that is done and a self-reflection tool that I call it is self-reflection and it asks maybe one to eight questions. I say eight because it relates to the burnout pie of the eight slices. You know, and I say, you know, how do you feel? 

How often do you feel, you know, detached from work? How often do you feel anxiety? How often do you feel, you know, and you just toss it off that you’re having a bad day. That’s another buzzword. Yes, we all have bad days. But there’s a build-up when it comes to burnout and then it comes a crash. 

And that corporate individual is not helping the organization anymore. And you will find some people will say, you know what? I’m not happy at this job. I’m going to leave because it must be the job. Again, it might have nothing to do with the job. You know, to thine own self be true, I always say, look at yourself first before you make, because you’re going to take yourself with you to the other job. You know, when I speak to a couple at home and the wife says to me, oh, he comes home and he just goes to his man cave and crack a beer. 

And it just bugs me that he does that. And I have to cook and clean and get the kids ready for… And you know, and I asked it, I asked the husband and I said, well, why do you feel like and the man cave is an escape. It’s an excuse. Yes, you can want to have a quiet place. I like my reflect time where I reflect my quiet time. I can do that flat on my back in the bed. I can sit at the foot of the bed. I can go in the bathroom and I can do it, but it doesn’t take four hours of sitting in there. 

You know, nothing against the guys, you know, but doing this one thing over and over, that isn’t addressing what they’re probably taking from work and bringing it at home. So sometimes homes become a dumping ground. I take what’s happening at work and I dump it at home. And then the wife takes what happened and she goes to bed and she doesn’t sleep and then resentment builds up about that. 

And then your child figures that you take him to school, but when he gets to drop him off, he’s hugging you really tight and he doesn’t want to let go. And then he goes up to school and doesn’t listen to the teacher, had his head, has his head down. So he’s taking the dumping from the husband dumps it at home. The wife didn’t sleep all last night. She might not be as, you know, warm in the morning and Tommy feels, you know, Mom doesn’t love me anymore. 

And then I don’t want to go to school and then I go to school and don’t want to work, I don’t want to, I don’t want to socialize, there’s detachment. And it takes a great educator and the teachers I give them, oh my god, I give them so much credit. And I taught temporarily just out of high school at a, you know, it was almost like a, it’s a private school and, you know, they were, everybody says I should be a teacher, you know. 

And I remember walking in and I, at that time I wasn’t thinking about anything, but I noticed this little girl just in the corner reserved. And then, you know, what do I do to help? And this is why I give teachers, you know, like, if I could put a crown on their head, you know, I give it to them because they’re taking care of your most precious cargo and they themselves are human. The teacher might be the one that the hubby needs to go in the man cave and she gets to sleep at night, right? 

Angela Kelly: Yes. 

Jasmin Dennis: She’s not going to, you know, and then comes to school and she has to be responsible for the emotions of and especially in these days right now with the, you know, what’s happening in school, the teachers have to be on their P and Q and they they’re watched from every angle, you know, and they have to be this walk in this tight rope. So when I speak to teachers, I basically say, all you have to do is to be, take your self-reflection so that you’re well. When you stand in front of the school teaching, you know you’re okay. So you don’t have to wonder if it’s me. 

Angela Kelly: Mhm. 

Jasmin Dennis: And then when you realize that I’m walking in my truth, I’ve taken my self-reflection, I know I’m feeling okay, I’m not perfect, I might have a headache, but then I can look at my classroom in a very different lens. 

Angela Kelly: Yes, beautiful. Yes. Thank you for that. Yes, there are many stress factors for families, for students, for teachers, and for school leaders out there. So for the school leader listeners out there, Jasmin, what are some of the more subtle signs of burnout that number one, they should be, you know, like monitoring for themselves? 

So you did definitely mentioned like your emotions, they’re not meant to be avoided or just ignored. They’re information. So when you’re feeling certain irritabilities or you’re feeling exhausted or you’re awake at night feeling anxious or you’re feeling very discouraged, I’m trying to remember all the pieces of the pie that you had mentioned. But when you’re feeling these certain emotions, they’re a signal, they’re information. Your body is communicating to you to get your attention. 

So it’s not a problem per se, it’s just you want to explore that emotion with curiosity to understand why you’re feeling the way you’re feeling, what’s coming up for you, and to like just be honest and acknowledge those thoughts and feelings because if not, if you’re just getting up and running from the bed to the shower, to the coffee maker, to the car, and you’re going, I call it, you’re going robotic, right? Or you’re just on autopilot. 

Jasmin Dennis: Yes. 

Angela Kelly: You’re actually trying to disassociate from those feelings that feel uncomfortable or feel negative because you’re under pressure to perform. And that pressure, if we don’t have a tolerance for the pressure or we’re at our bandwidth, we’re just at max capacity, that’s if we’re not acknowledging that we’re at capacity, but we continue to overwork and overschedule and over exert, now we’re hitting that threshold of burnout. 

So, what can school leaders first identify within themselves? What are those subtle signs? And then the second part of that question is when they’re leading staff and students, what subtle signs might they be looking for in other people that would indicate to them this person may be experiencing, you know, or approaching burnout?

Jasmin Dennis: Okay. Yes. Well, the eight slice, thank you, Angela. The eight slices, you know, goes into anxiety, sleeplessness, hopelessness. And I, I’ll break it down because everyone, hopelessness is bad. You know, there’s a depression, there’s a detachment, there’s exhaustion, irritability, and chronic stress. 

So, as an individual, I have had people go through all spectrums of all of that. They’re fully loaded with all of that. They’re a lit match, ready to go off of anything, never sleep in, always anxious, don’t socialize at work, you know, depressed, all those things are happening all at once. And what I do with an individual, if you know, I’m not asking you to say overnight, be free of all these. 

But some main, and people look at this one so lightly and it is the one thing that is one of the most important slice in the pie. You must sleep. The animals sleep, the ants sleep, the birds, you must be able to, you know, six to eight hours. I hear people talk all the time, oh, I can function in two hours sleep. Oh, that’s a volcano, you know, ready to like burst open. You know, and I wrote an article it was in Japan, prime minister that says she functions on two hours sleep.

And I remember one of the a gentleman on LinkedIn from one of the corners of LinkedIn, he said he used to say that, but he quickly changed it. He recognized that he was heading nowhere, you know, fast. So I always say to, you know, to recognize it in someone else, I recognize it on the phone because I’m so clued into individuals, not that I’m watching them, but I have like antennas going around. 

And if you see someone that if they have to apologize to you, you go to work and it might be a coworker, once or twice in a day, that’s a key. If you are with someone and they, you see all of a sudden they were a vibrant individual and they decide to eat lunch by themselves, you know, every day for the, for the last two weeks, you know, pay attention to that. 

If you see someone that, you know, is just constantly feel hopeless and teary when you talk to them. I was in the elevator the other day talking to someone and I know the person was the brink of crying, okay? So when you see that and if someone is saying, you know, exhaustion, you know, is a thing to where someone says, I don’t know, it must be the weather. I just feel exhausted, it must be the weather. 

But then the sun comes out, I’m exhausted, you know, I feel like I have a headache, I didn’t. And so you’re kind of and it’s you don’t go up to someone and says, oh, you must be in burnout. 

Angela Kelly: Right. That’s not the approach we want to take there. 

Jasmin Dennis: No. You empathy. So you, I train the organization, the leaders. I said, if you can lead with compassion, meaning that you can have your privacy, create an open door for your team. Let the door crack. If you have to work, you address your team and you say, I’m going to need these three hours because I have something important to do, otherwise leave it open, right? Try to socialize. You know, the Japanese call it, is it Ikigai? never pronounce it, but a sense of purpose. 

Most people walk around without a, they wake up without a sense of purpose. They’re on this hamster wheel every day and they really don’t have a sense of purpose. Except I’m going to work today and I’m getting a paycheck at the end of the week. So you see all that motions going down. You train them to get rid of and I, on one-on-one, I said, okay, chronic stress is not easy to treat. It’s sustained stress that has not been taken care of. 

So let’s start with, you know, what you’re experiencing today. Look at the burnout pie and I have them physically look at the burnout pie and someone must say, you know what? I feel teary, you know, I don’t know why I feel teary. I don’t feel, I want to cry. I don’t jump to treat them right away because depression is a finicky thing and that is beyond my scope, you know. So I go to something else that might be causing them to feel depressed, right? 

And I might say, okay, why are you constantly irritable all day? The animals, if you look at a dog, he wakes, when a cat, they wake up and they stretch and they move around and they whatever. And I said, I said, you know, let’s work on that. How often do you feel irritable or what makes you feel irritable? 

You don’t have to feel irritable if it’s raining all day. You don’t have to feel irritable if you miss the bus. You don’t have to feel irritable if you get to class late. You don’t have to feel irritable if someone in the class is acting up. So how often do you feel like it just takes that thing to send you off? 

Then you have to apologize and backtrack, right? And how, you know, for instance, you know, I was talking to someone the other day, it was in a group environment, right? And someone brought it up and she said to me, so when my husband comes home, do I tell him to get out of the man cave? I said, no, that is his space. You might say, well, honey, you know, what can I do to help you? Empathy comes in. 

So the fabric all the way through to identify and help others in burnout, first display empathy. How can I help you? I see that, you don’t say I see you’re heading for, oh, I see you’re anxious today. Oh, I see you’re a little bit detached. I just sense something different from you, I always say. I can walk into an organization, walk right through the door and I can pick out right away when I’m walking around who is detached, who is irritable, who is, I can spot it, you know, and I can see that team is in burnout. So I start with the leaders first.

Angela Kelly: Yes. Absolutely. Leaders go first and we go often. So there are definitely, like tuning into your emotional experience and feeling the energy from others that that emotional energy from others, that’s definitely a telltale sign. So I’m going to venture to say that when you’re noticing it in others, your key strategy is empathy first. And I would say that’s the same for yourself. 

So if you are feeling stressed, overwhelmed, exhausted, you know, hopeless, depressed, any of these feelings, irritability, checking in with yourself starting with empathy for yourself. What’s coming up for you, darling? Like, I try to be very kind to myself and ask what is coming up for you? How are you feeling? Like as though I were my own best friend, asking myself, how are you doing truly and letting myself be honest with myself with that empathy in mind. 

As a school leader, we can start there because we want to have the bandwidth when we go out to lead to be able to, number one, spot these subtle burnouts in other people. And then two, we’re starting to go into like, what do we do when we notice this? It’s not to say, hey, you look really burned out. 

Like that’s not going to help someone feel amazing. It is, it’s that, hey, you matter to me. I’m concerned, like empathy, what’s coming up for you? Are you okay? Is there something that you need today? And letting them communicate to you what their needs are if they’re able to articulate it. 

And if not, perhaps are there ways where leaders can proactively in terms of creating a work culture where they’re proactively monitoring how people are feeling and putting things into place so that burnout isn’t the norm, that it may be happens, you know, there’s always ebbs and flows to the school year and so there are times like the beginning of the year where there’s a lot of extra work we put in and then maybe at the end and during testing season, like we have certain seasons that are busier than others. 

But are there things that you can share with school leaders where they could be proactive in supporting a culture where burnout isn’t just the norm, the normal way of existing?

Jasmin Dennis: Oh, it’s not the norm. I’m going to tell you just a little bit of a story quickly. It’s not a long story, but this story will stay with me forever. And I was in one of my wellness centers and someone tapped my glass window and says, there’s a lady and her son, you know, outside, would like to speak to you. And the son is an adult son. 

And, you know, because we’re in a wellness center, we tend to judge people’s by the outlook, right? You so first of all then you, you tend to look at someone if they’re coming to see me, they’re probably over, you know, they probably want to lose weight or they want probably want to do this. So she comes into my office before she comes into my office, I went to the door and I greeted the son and I greeted her and instinctively I said to the son, do you mind if I, this is for your mom, right? Yes. 

Do you mind if I speak to your mom alone initially and then you can join us? And, you know, she came in and she was, I think the super it’s an in Canada we call them but she is like an area supervisor for, you know, the universities, right? So she comes in and she sits down and I look at her and something told me, don’t say a word. Do not say a word. 

And I sat there and she sat there and it was an uncomfortable couple minutes. And I sat there and it was five minutes and it was 10 minutes and it was close to 20 minutes, but from the three minutes in, she just started crying. 

So it’s easy for me to prolong the silence. And she cried and she cried and she cried and she cried. And at the 20 minutes, I see the son looking, he was, you know, see me not talk. And, you know, I said to her, I said, do you mind coming back? I said, we’re going to end this here today. But do you mind coming back to see me? And promise me you’ll come back to see me. 

This is not me pushing you off. Promise me you’ll come back and see me within the next two days. I’m going to write you in my book. I’ll, you know, plot out a time, give me a time when we can sit for two hours. Not an hour, for two hours. And I know she was in deep burnout. Deep. And, you know, so she came back and we sat and the first thing out of her mouth, she said to me, thank you for giving me the space to cry. 

She says, I do need to lose 60 pounds, but that wasn’t the end all. It was taking her work, taking home and not getting the support from hubby and the family. The son decided to come with her because there was probably the pressure, well, I’m going to make sure you go to the gym. They didn’t verbally say that to me, but I can almost play the conversation in my head. 

And we went through a series and we talked and we said, you know what? First, we’re going to get you well. We’re going to get you well. Not by, you know, not a cold, not that kind of a diagnostic well, but we’re going to make sure that up here, a checkup from the neck up, we are going to make sure you’re okay up there. 

So, you know, I went through the series of questions and everything is fine and, you know, she was coming in, she was motivated and by herself, son wasn’t escorting her. Long story short, she became at her age at 56, a professional bodybuilder. 

Angela Kelly: Oh my gosh. 

Jasmin Dennis: She was so into loving herself and she would have blown the burnout pie away. In one of the conversations, it was close to a marriage breakup. Oh, he was, I mean, he has a hot wife now, right? But, you know, and her head is right and you know, and that rubs off on the family. So it’s emotional and my book in The Hidden Signs: Identifying Emotional Burnout, I use the word emotional because it all starts here. 

And so I always say to someone, check in, spot the signs. You’re going to know when your hubby is in burnout. The hubby’s going to know when you and that’s what burnout is. That’s why it’s a buzzword. It’s a buzzword. When somebody says hurry, it’s not in the burnout pie, but urgency also leads to burnout. And if you can just calm and in your podcast, I listen, you know, love yourself, sit in that space, check in with yourself. 

And once you do that, you’re going to heal everyone else around you. Her name was Angela [unintelligible]. She healed herself and her entire household. And that’s the beauty of identifying and recognizing in yourself, you know, you don’t have to have this detrimental going to the doctor, it’s so bad that now you have all these diseases. 

You, we’re mentally free and happy. And that’s why the Japanese say socialize, talk to your friends, at school. Don’t forget, you know, I’m eating my lunch. Don’t want to talk to anybody. You know, eat your lunch and then just walk around and smile and laugh with somebody. You know, it really is. It really helps, you know? Most people go to work all day and they don’t laugh or smile all day long. 

Angela Kelly: Mhm. Mhm. 

Jasmin Dennis: You know, I remember I was giving someone a ride and I was introduced to her as a client and she, I was driving and she was one of these individual that was very prim and proper. You know, I didn’t know her before I picked her up. I had to describe my car, she described what she was wearing. 

She comes in the car and I am driving and five minutes into the drive, I said, I hope you have a strong heart. And she just started laughing her head off. You know, she said, just dying of laugh. She says, but because I thought today was going to be the last day of my life, the way you were driving. You know. 

So it’s even creating humor in someone else. You know, poke fun at yourself if you want to, you know, create a laughter with someone else. Poke fun at you, you know, I’ve often said, oh my God, my this big hair today. And somebody will laugh. You know?

Angela Kelly: Yes. 

Jasmin Dennis: So, yeah, poke fun at yourself to get, instill laughter in someone else.

Angela Kelly: Yes. Yes. Oh, you, the two things I really want to emphasize that you said was number one is the release of the emotion. It’s the acknowledgement of how you’re actually feeling. So that woman who came into your office, she didn’t feel she had the space or the permission to simply feel all of those feelings and let them come to the surface and let her eyes leak water. 

And just let the emotion fully flow through her for a good 15 to 20 minutes and then eventually, right? And it’s interesting, like we’re so afraid to feel those painful feelings and the worst thing that really happens is we kind of cry it out or we, you know, cry ourselves to sleep or we scream into a pillow or but there’s nothing other than just allowing that emotion to kind of go in waves through our body. 

So there’s that feeling of that emotion, giving ourselves that permission to actually feel and not go into autopilot and robotic mode where we’re trying to suppress it all and keep it all together. And I think that’s such a disservice that we tell people like that we should be professional. We have terms where it’s like basically don’t show emotion, don’t feel emotion. And if you’re emotional, that’s a sign of weakness. 

But that’s the opposite of what is true. Like the courage to feel your emotions, to acknowledge them, to process them, to allow them to be present, to let them flow through you. That’s step one. And then the other thing you said is I think it was the same woman where you were saying like she ended up becoming a bodybuilder. It’s when you can let yourself feel your emotions, then you can get more physical and part of the turning burnout around is one, feeling the emotions, and two, getting more physical in your body. 

Whether that’s taking a walk or, you know, taking a yoga class or just even simple stretches when you wake up in the morning. You were saying about getting up and we stretch and, you know, the cats and dogs when the first thing they do is stretch their bodies. They go from that sleep mode into like movement mode and they walk around and that’s what we can do as well is to take a moment, breathe, stretch, and then direct our thoughts. 

I would think that this is the third step is when you’re feeling your emotions and you’re moving your body, it’s directing our thoughts to what’s possible and the possibilities of the day ahead and the week ahead. And, you know, looking forward to lunch with a colleague or, you know, making sure like you’re going to look for the fun in the day and make light and just create some levity in your workplace. Everyone can bring that to the table. You don’t have to be a comedian to do that. 

Jasmin Dennis: You don’t. 

Angela Kelly: You can laugh about, you know, there’s so many times where as a teacher, as a principal, we would joke like somebody would have like two different pairs of socks on or two different shoes, like shoes that looked similar in the morning when you were, it was dark and you came in with a black shoe and a navy blue shoe and you know, like funny things like that. You know, just like or you know, your sweater’s inside out or you know, like silly things that we do when we’re in the hurry of teaching and learning and leading. 

So I really appreciate these tips that you’ve provided for our school leaders today and our educators. They’re going to be so grateful. Are there any last words of wisdom that you would like to share with our school leaders today, Jasmin?

Jasmin Dennis: Like you, your last words, you brought stretching up. I believe, you know, something happens. There’s a release. I love stretching. And, you know, you hold it. Most people, no, it’s not a static move. It’s like the cat is long, slow. And if, you know, if I could just leave this with you to say, if you make it a habit to take five minutes out of your day to just stretch. 

Right now, thinking about it, I’m getting goosebumps because my body has become so used to it that it’s looking forward to it to say, yes, you’ve given me what I want. Now go out and serve others. So that five minutes of breath, they say the yogi says, if you lose your breath, you lose your life. So that five minutes, you don’t have to stop and do them separately within the stretching, you do your breath. The eight breath. 

If you were to just to do that every day and to promise yourself that you will check in with yourself every day, see how you’re feeling. It’s not a weakness to feel burned out. And, you know, this is one thing I would love to change all organization to make it okay for someone to go into work one day and say, you know what? I am not going to serve you well today. I’m not at my best today. 

Please give me permission to go and take care of myself without chastising that person without reminding them of the deadline and the work. I wish and I pray that they feel, that’s why I say to leaders, lead with compassion. That freedom, and I guarantee you, if you give that individual that day to just take care of themselves, they’re going to be 10 times better the next day.

Angela Kelly: Mhm. Absolutely. And that’s true for ourselves and for our staff members. So keeping in mind that everyone on your campus goes through moments of intense pressure or fatigue or exhaustion, maybe something’s going on at home. So we want to keep that in mind. The humanity part of education is that teachers are humans who have lives outside of teaching and leaders are humans who have lives outside of, of leading their schools. 

And we want to first give ourselves permission and we also want to create a culture of permission to be human. And education really has become so pressurized, pressure for the testing, pressure for academic success, pressure to always be improving benchmark assessments and meeting the grade so to speak and getting the kids, you know, to achieve academic, primarily academics, but also socially. And then we want them to be of service as they get older. 

So there’s a lot of pressure we’re putting on the little people, which puts pressure on the adults. And if we were to keep in mind that the real solution isn’t some externalized program even, it’s really within yourself. It’s giving yourself permission to feel, giving yourself permission to breathe, giving yourself permission to take a five-minute walk around campus or a three-minute stretch in your office or for teachers, perhaps, you know, while the kids are at recess, take a five-minute stretch, actually take your lunch. 

And I know I was notoriously bad at eating lunch because I, as a kindergarten teacher, I was prepping for the afternoon, so I would like eat and work at the same time. But on the days where I was consciously choosing and intentionally choosing to go into the staff room, I felt so much better than I did on those days where I was rushing through my lunch. So I started noticing that. And I appreciate you reminding us again to take care of the body and the breath and the leadership and the teaching will follow.

Jasmin Dennis: That’s absolutely true.

Angela Kelly: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It’s so interesting the way that you serve, it’s in the wellness industry, but it focuses on burnout and it’s helping people identify for themselves at an individual level, where am I at on the pie chart today? 

Jasmin Dennis: Yes. 

Angela Kelly: And then they can, you know, each day is a little bit different and they can focus on one slice of the pie maybe a week at a time or, you know, doing it daily or maybe monthly they have a monthly goal for one of the pies and they’re able to start moving a little bit more and doing things that make them laugh a little bit more and little by little, step by step that burnout can, you know, can turn the volume down there on the burnout. So.

Jasmin Dennis: Oh, yes. The goal is to get over to the well pie, you know? Goal is you know, Angela went out on the well pie because it’s not a matter that like a bodybuilder, you know, well, you don’t have to be a bodybuilder to be healthy, but she was so in tuned and feeling such good thing that her workout, you know, extended to that. And now she’s competing, so in a more different, endorphins are coming in. So we want those endorphins to come in. Find a way to get them coming every day. 

Angela Kelly: Yes. Yes. And that’s an, you know, in my program, I talk a lot about your identity as a leader, your leadership identity. And this person was able to completely re-identify herself as a woman, as a professional, and the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. So one slice of the pie can really have a profound impact on the other slices. Is that true?

Jasmin Dennis: Absolutely. Absolutely. If they’re a great sleeper, right, I and I quickly want to say this because people categorize, oh, I sleep nine hours per night, so I’m good. I always say, when you wake up from that nine hours, how do you feel? So you have to watch how you feel when you sleep. You don’t have to have the, watch how you feel. 

So even though someone says, oh, I’m fine, I sleep. I sleep like crazy. Oftentimes, if I continue speaking them long enough, there is some underlying of depression setting in or hopelessness setting in. So even though sleep is crucial, I always watch when someone says, oh, I have no problem sleeping.

Angela Kelly: Yeah, because oversleeping could be a symptom as well.

Jasmin Dennis: Yes.

Angela Kelly: Yeah. So we want to find the sweet spot. I call it the land of and. Where you’re not too much, not too little, just right.

Jasmin Dennis: Yes. Just right. And you feel so great when you get it just right.

Angela Kelly: Yes, yeah. Yes. I love those mornings.

Jasmin Dennis: Yeah.

Angela Kelly: Well, thank you for your time today, Jasmin. It has been such a pleasure to have you. It’s a delight to meet you and I thank you for the work you’re doing in organizations and supporting them at an individual and at a corporate level and really bringing in the concept of parenting and connecting with the school. 

Like that full circle helps educators when they feel seen and heard and they matter through the parents, that burnout can turn down very quickly when people feel connected and they feel engaged with their students and with their families and at a school level, right, with their colleagues and their leaders. So thank you again for all the work that you’re doing in the world and for being here today.

Jasmin Dennis: Thank you for having me. This is fantastic. I love it.

Angela Kelly: Such a great pleasure. Well, thank you listeners so much. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation with Jasmin Dennis. I will put all of her contact info and links in the show notes so you will have access to that. 

And we hope that this has provided some insight on different subtle ways that burnout might be showing up in your life or on your campus so that you can be on the lookout for that and to give yourself a little grace and some compassion along with your teachers. You know, this time of year in the spring season, people are tired and people have been working hard since August, July, and August, and we’ve been pushing through. It’s testing season. 

So be mindful of that and allow your teachers just some graciousness and some empathy when it comes to this particular season of the school year. So you guys are almost at the finish line. Take good care of yourselves. Be well and we look forward to talking with you next week. Have a beautiful week. Take care. Bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Empowered Principal® Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, please visit AngelaKellyCoaching.com where you can sign up for weekly updates and learn more about the tools that will help you become an emotionally fit school leader.

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        - [ ] The Empowered Principal® Podcast Angela Kelly | Overcome Childlike Energy and Step into Mature Empowerment

Have you ever found yourself stuck in childlike energy, acting from a place of immaturity instead of mature empowerment, when starting something new? As aspiring or new school leaders, we can experience moments when we feel like we’re operating from a place of fear, insecurity, or emotional reactivity rather than from true, aligned power. 

In this episode, I break down what childlike energy is and why it can feel so hard to break free from. Whether it’s reacting emotionally, feeling disempowered, or being overwhelmed by external circumstances, this energy can keep you from stepping into your full potential as a leader.

Tune in this week to discover how to recognize and shift out of childlike energy, so you can access the mature empowerment you need to make clear, confident decisions. You’ll also learn how to regulate your emotions, set healthy boundaries, and take back control over your energy. This episode will guide you back to alignment, helping you lead from a place of self-trust and true power, even when faced with difficult challenges.

The Empowered Principal® Collaborative is my latest offer for aspiring and current school leaders who want to create exceptional impact and enjoy the school leadership experience. Join us today to become a member of the only certified life and leadership coaching program for school leaders in the country by clicking here.

What You’ll Learn From this Episode:

  • What childlike energy is and how it shows up in leadership.
  • The difference between childlike energy and mature empowerment.
  • Why self-awareness is key to recognizing this energy and what to do about it.
  • How to regulate your emotions and avoid reacting out of fear or insecurity.
  • The importance of vulnerability and self-reflection in leadership.
  • How to shift from emotional reactivity to confident, empowered decision-making.

Listen to the Full Episode:

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Full Episode Transcript:

Hello, empowered principals. Welcome to episode 433. 

Welcome to The Empowered Principal® Podcast, a not so typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host certified life coach Angela Kelly.

Well, hello, my Empowered Principals. Happy Tuesday. Welcome to the podcast. I have an interesting topic that I’m going to discuss with you today. It’s not a topic I have felt comfortable talking about for a while because it’s so personal to me. I’ve been doing this personal work and been on this personal journey. 

And in my work with my coach, my coaches, I should say, and through the work that I do as a coach, I’ve really uncovered some understanding about the fears that I had in school leadership when I was in school leadership, the fears that I have as a coach, the fears that I have as a human, as a female on the planet, and the way that I was conditioned to understand myself in the world, the way that I was taught and expected to behave or to respond or to act, behave, think, all of that at a deeper subconscious level.

And I want to talk about it today, number one, because it’s really prevalent in aspiring school leaders and brand-new school leaders. This is the time of year when people are transitioning into becoming a school leader and stepping out of a teacher leadership role into an administrative leadership role. And with that can come what I call child energy, little kid energy, an immaturity that is tapped within us when we are venturing into the unknowns, a new adventure, a new chapter, a new position, particularly when we step into a leadership position.

So what I mean by child energy is this naivety, this uncertainty. I’m not sure. I’m kind of shy. I’m stepping back. I’m asking other people, what should I do? What should I think? What should I believe? What should I value? What should my philosophy be? I’m looking outside of myself as a little kid, you know, as somebody who’s new, to guide me.

Now, there is nothing wrong with having a coach, having a mentor, having guidance, looking to those you admire for aspiration and inspiration and leadership, knowledge, wisdom. Of course, we can’t know all of it ourselves. That’s not the goal. We want to learn from others. The energy I’m speaking of, it’s more of an approach fueled by fear. 

So it’s when you feel kind of afraid to be a leader. You’re timid, you feel a little helpless, you lean on other people to kind of, you know, the buck stops with them. So you might feel more comfortable in an AP position because you’re like, well, the lead principal, the buck really stops with them. So you might feel insecure with your opinions, your decisions, your actions, your initiatives that you want to take, or perhaps you are very easily intimidated by other people’s confidence.

So when you are new, you walk into a room and there is a ton of highly successful leaders, very confident leaders, leaders who seemingly know what they’re talking about, what they’re saying, what they’re doing. They have a vision, they have a mission, they’re very fueled, they’re passionate, they are knowledgeable, they seem very wise, they’ve been around the block before, they have experience under their belt, and that can feel very intimidating. Now, you can be a leader who’s been doing this job for three, five, 10 years and still feel this. 

So it tends to happen when you’re new at something. That’s pretty normal. And I talk about how to embrace being new in other podcast episodes. So when you’re new, right, we sometimes we hold back. We test the waters. We check on other people. We’re picking up cues, right? How are they thinking? How are they feeling? What how are they responding? You’re looking at their behaviors, their facial expressions, their body expressions, that those nonverbal cues to kind of see what the response is going to be. And you’re getting to know people before you lead, right?

We often tell first-year leaders, build relationships. And that first year, you’ll get grace where you’re not maybe taking a ton of forward action or you know laying out a vision or pushing people forward. You might just be getting to know people. That’s very common in your first year where you are building relationships. 

However, building relationships, that term can be used sometimes as a shield or excuse to not have to be vulnerable, to not have to express yourself, to not be clear with yourself on who you are and what you believe in and what you want to do and how you want to approach your leadership position and really stepping into the identity as a leader.

So I’ve noticed this with new leaders, I myself included. You know, it’s easy to want to kind of tread water and watch what everybody else is doing and you’re kind of picking up context clues. But you can tread so long that you’re not stepping out and taking action, right? 

There’s a difference between watching what’s going on and then trying a little something and then watching a little bit more and then trying a little something. That’s different than just watching and observing and kind of waiting to react to other people around you versus taking leadership and responding internally with your own thoughts, opinions, and ideas.

And I understand when you’re new, you’re like, how do I know? I don’t know what I don’t know. That’s absolutely correct. The way that you learn, trial and error. Yes, you observe people. Yes, you get out there and you just meet with them. You build relationships with them. You get to understand them and know them. 

And also, you’re also taking action. You’re also expressing yourself. You’re learning about your school and then you’re processing that and you’re saying, what are my thoughts and feelings around this? What am I adding to this? What do I believe to be true? What do I think is the next best thing for my staff or my school?

So it can happen when you’re new, but I’ve also noticed that it can happen after you’ve been in an identity of empowerment. So perhaps you felt very confident and strong as a teacher or as an instructional coach. And then you get into a leadership position and you bring that empowerment with you, and then something happens. So sometimes you have felt, you have been in a stage of confidence or empowerment and you feel like you’re in grown-up energy, adult, mature, you feel knowledgeable, you feel secure in your own skin and assured with yourself.

And then a situation kind of shakes you. I call this an identity quake, where something happens and maybe you didn’t handle it as well as you would have liked or you didn’t know what to do, or it really set you back. It kind of put you in check or it hurt you, it really criticized you. Maybe you got admonished. And we can revert back to more of that like childlike energy when we feel like we have been attacked or we’ve been admonished or punished or scolded.

So I’ve observed this in myself and in others that if it’s not brand-new energy where you’re actually just, you are new and you’re learning and trying to figure things out, sometimes we get into this like big people energy where it’s kind of bossy. You know? I think of like I’m the oldest sister of two, my sister and I, and I’m the oldest. 

So like big sister energy, kind of bossy energy, like my way or the highway, one perspective. It’s this kind of boss vibes energy, bro energy. Some people call it masculine energy. I think of like the Devil Wears Prada energy where, you know, the boss is just like very assertive and aggressive and, you know, people are afraid of her and she’s clicking around and making everybody fear her through intimidation, right? Granted, it’s a movie, but that’s kind of the image that comes to mind for me.

Sometimes it lacks compassion or perspective or awareness on who they are and how they’re being, or they’re using it to kind of toss their energy, their vibe, and authority around so that people don’t question them. People don’t give them feedback. People don’t critique you or they don’t offer another way. 

So sometimes we use this like bossy vibe energy as a layer of protection. We’re actually so soft on the inside that we don’t want people to give us feedback or critique us or offer something, a different perspective or a different approach to something. We don’t want to hear what other people have to say or how they feel. We just protect ourselves. And in doing so, we’re unaware of, you know, our lack of empathy or compassion or how other people might feel, you know, if they’re feeling dismissed or they’re feeling that, you know, we are being rude to them in some way.

We can use empowerment as a form of protection. And we can also use this childlike, innocent kind of naivety as a form of protection. So just first of all, just notice if you’re doing one or the other. So sometimes when you are naive, you might get kind of a smackdown where people are like, step up and lead. 

And you’re so afraid to do that because you feel you don’t know, you feel like an imposter, you’re afraid, you’re new, and really the solution to that is kind of dipping your toe in, making the best decision you can, grounding yourself, getting in alignment and moving forward, being vulnerable, knowing that you won’t do it perfectly. There’s overcoming that fear.

And then there’s the other side of this where people who have been very bold and strong and protected and they’re in their, you know, Devil Wears Prada energy, something happens or someone comes along and awakens you in a very abrupt way where they give you the smackdown and it stings so much. It puts you into doubt. It makes you doubt yourself, question yourself. 

And you’re like, whoa, I used to feel so confident and now I’m, I feel like I’m walking on eggshells. I’m walking around and I’m not sure if, who to be or if I can be strong again or I’m afraid of empowerment because this negative experience happened. And again, that’s another identity quake, right?

So an identity quake is just something that comes in and shatters your reality. It literally changes your identity. And oftentimes, at the time it happens, you’ll say, I did not see that coming. You might in hindsight see the signs that it was coming or the signals, but at the time it happens, it feels like you got blindsided. 

Like an example might be that you got laid off. You had no idea it was coming and you got laid off and you weren’t expecting it. Maybe you were reassigned or you were demoted. You went from being a teacher leader to not being in a leadership position or you were an AP and put back in the classroom or you were a lead principal and they asked you to go to an AP position. And that can be demoralizing. It can be kind of an emotional smackdown where you feel afraid to speak up, afraid of your own empowerment.

And we can find ourselves kind of swimming back in childlike energy. Like, well, I tried this and it didn’t work. So now I’m going to go over here. And now we’re in the land of all or none where we’re either in our empowerment and we’re being kind of protective in one sense, or we’re being in this childlike energy and we’re being in this, you know, protectiveness where it’s not me, not my fault, you know, I don’t know what I’m doing. I need other people to help me. Kind of a helplessness.

So my goal in supporting school leaders is to find the land of and, is to bring you back to the middle ground, which is authentic empowerment. And sometimes you have to explore the boundaries. You have to be in that little child energy, and then you need to be in big boss energy to kind of feel the boundaries of that, to land in the middle that feels appropriate for you. 

So fears of identifying as an empowered leader or fears of stepping back into your empowerment or being in a mindset and an identity of empowerment is something that many principals experience. 

So if you are experiencing this where you’re new or you’re going to be new and you’re anticipating this fear, or you’ve had a little smackdown at some point and you feel wounded and maybe you have, you know, your heart is gaping open and you’re heartbroken or you’re very embarrassed or ashamed or you’re unsure of yourself and you’re doubting yourself and you’re recalculating and rebuilding back up to your identity, this is normal. It’s a part of our experience. It’s how we test those boundaries.

But when it’s left unattended, if you’re either in this childlike energy or you’re in this big boss energy, you will find that you will go through the motions of leadership and you will be acting as a school leader, but you’re not generating the outcomes you want or not having the impact that you desire. And that’s where the feelings of imposter syndrome or I’m not good enough, I feel insufficient, come up because you’re doing the work, but it’s not creating the outcomes.

And I’ve been in this. I’ve been in this as a teacher where you’re kind of spinning trying to figure out who you are and how to get results. Then I was spinning around as a principal, and then I was spinning as a district leader when I was the coordinator for the RTI programs across the district. 

And I’ve had moments and chapters of that in my business, spinning as a coach, trying to figure out how to serve more people or how to communicate, how to coach better, how to communicate better, how to explain these concepts of what I believe will really create positive impact for school leaders and students and staff and communities, which is this internal work that we’re doing here, called empowerment.

So when you are in a cycle of imposter syndrome, and if that tends to surface on a regular basis, you might find that your strategy becomes waiting for others to tell you what to do, waiting for people to validate your opinions, waiting for people to make the decisions or to support your decisions before you move forward. Before you take any action, you make sure you’re like over-ensuring that you’re doing the right thing. That’s childlike energy. 

It’s like waiting for mom and dad’s approval, waiting for teacher’s approval, waiting for your, you know, athletic coach’s approval versus getting out there and just playing the game and then be willing to get the feedback and be willing to make mistakes, but you’re going for it, you know, 100 miles an hour, 100%, right? It can stagnate you and your school from evolving yourself, evolving others, your staff, those you’re leading, your students, your community.

So as uncomfortable as this is, addressing this childlike energy within you, acknowledging when you’re in it, validating the fears and the other emotions that are fueling it and owning, really owning that you do have access and the ability to step back into your own power is required of you as a leader, to feel better and feel more aligned.

Exercising empowerment, it is not simple because the little kid energy within us is triggered all the time. We want to retract. We want somebody else to be the leader. We want them to tell us what to do. We don’t want to take ownership. We don’t want to be out on the front lines, you know, taking the bullet, so to speak. We’re gonna want to be behind the shield. 

But part of leadership requires us to own the leadership part and to step into our maturity and to step into the truth that we have the power within us to lead with maturity and to own our emotions and to own our decisions and actions and to have the bandwidth to when we get it right, we celebrate. When we get it wrong, we apologize and repair, but we keep going. We don’t let it stop us.

It’s hard work. It’s scary work, but it is so freeing. It is highly rewarding. I do this work consistently myself. I work with multiple coaches and I also support school leaders as a coach through this process. We discuss this work in EPC. Clients of mine will schedule one-on-ones, you know, private sessions for deeper emotional processing. I believe it’s the most empowering way to be a highly effective leader.

And I’m talking not just school leadership, but the leader of your life. Being you, doing what you want to do, living your life the way you want to live, allowing other people to have their opinions about you and have their opinions about how you should run your school and have their thoughts and ideas. And not that they can’t have them, but that you can still be in your empowerment. 

You don’t have to be dismissed or to demote yourself or your own ideas or your own approach to life or leadership because other people have different opinions. If someone’s in a funk, it doesn’t have to mean now you’re in a funk. If they have a negative opinion of your decisions and actions, we don’t throw them out. We can listen to them, but we can self-discern.

That’s true empowerment. Is being able to see that somebody else’s tantrums, somebody else’s emotions are theirs to own. We don’t need to own them. We don’t need to fix them. We don’t even need to change them. We can acknowledge them and allow them to have their feelings while we get busy and regulate our own emotions. 

So when we feel triggered, when we feel like a little kid and somebody’s scolded us and we’re sad, we can be sad, and then we can be mature and say, okay, why am I sad? What can I learn from this? What do I believe is true here? And you’re right back into your empowerment. Easier said than done, I know, but it is the path to empowerment. 

And that’s the whole goal. That’s my mission, is to empower principals, to empower site and district leaders, state leaders, to empower teachers so that they can empower children. That is the purpose of education. In my book, I believe that we are here to authentically empower people to have their own identities, their own feelings, allow people to come up with their own thoughts, their own ideas. 

We call it critical thinking. We want to empower that. We don’t want people to think in conformity or to be isolated if they think differently than us. It’s to bring us together, to collaborate, and to allow differences of opinion, to be mature, to respect ourselves as much as we respect others, to not wait for others to tell us what to do for the rest of our lives.

So if you feel called to really working on your empowerment and learning the skills, the exercises, the practices to get yourself back into a state of empowerment when you have slipped into this childlike energy, I really invite you to join EPC. You can join now. You can join this summer. For those of you who book for next year, you get access to the rest of this year. You get to come in the back door and see what the end of the season looks like. 

Then we jump into summer of fun, and then we’re off to the races. I’m going to have, you know, programming in the summer, trainings to help you prepare and get ready for the fall. It’s a wonderful time to join EPC. I love you all. I care about you and I invite you into your mature empowerment. 

And that little kid energy, I promise you, it comes out all the time. It comes out in me. It comes out in others. You want to know how to recognize it and you want to know what to do with it, to create awareness around it, to feel it, to acknowledge it, to validate it, to get back into alignment, and then to have the courage to step back into your mature empowerment. Have a beautiful day. I love you all. Take care. Bye-bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Empowered Principal® Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, please visit AngelaKellyCoaching.com where you can sign up for weekly updates and learn more about the tools that will help you become an emotionally fit school leader.

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The Empowered Principal® Podcast Angela Kelly | The Neuroscience of Behavior: How to Create the Conditions for Real Transformation with Dr. Lisa Riegel

What if the way we’ve been thinking about student behavior, engagement, and learning is missing a critical piece: the brain itself?

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Lisa Riegel, a former educator and expert in brain science, to explore how understanding neuroscience can completely shift the way you lead your school, support your teachers, and respond to your students. We dive into her work around the “8 C’s” and how school leaders can create the conditions for meaningful, lasting change.

Join us this week as we talk about how neuroscience impacts teaching, learning, and leadership. You’ll walk away with a clearer understanding of how the brain influences behavior, why traditional approaches to motivation and discipline often fall short, and how you can lead in a way that aligns with how people actually learn and change. This episode will help you think differently about your role as a leader and give you a new lens for supporting both students and staff in a more human-centered, effective way.

The Empowered Principal® Collaborative is my latest offer for aspiring and current school leaders who want to create exceptional impact and enjoy the school leadership experience. Join us today to become a member of the only certified life and leadership coaching program for school leaders in the country by clicking here.

What You’ll Learn From this Episode:

  • How neuroscience shapes student behavior, learning, and engagement.
  • Why understanding the brain changes how you approach leadership.
  • The limitations of traditional discipline and motivation strategies.
  • What the 8 C’s framework is and how it supports lasting change.
  • How to create conditions where real transformation can happen.
  • Why emotional safety and connection are critical for learning.
  • How to better support teachers and students through a brain-based lens.

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Full Episode Transcript:

Hello, empowered principals. Welcome to episode 432.

Welcome to The Empowered Principal® Podcast, a not so typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host certified life coach Angela Kelly.

All right, my empowered principals, you are in for an outstanding interview with Dr. Lisa Riegel. She studies brain neurology and its impact on teaching, learning, and leading. I was profoundly moved by this interview. She is exquisite. She’s got some books that you can find in the show notes. There are links to those books in the show notes, and you are going to find this the most extraordinary interview. I loved it. I can’t wait to collaborate with her further in the future. I hope and I know you will enjoy this show.

Angela Kelly: It is such a pleasure to be here with you today. Happy Tuesday and welcome to the podcast. I have a special guest with us today, Dr. Lisa Riegel. She has some incredible information to share on neuroscience, the brain, how the brain works, how kids learn, how teachers teach, and we just had a really amazing meet and greet session, and I love her work. She has an eight, it’s the eight C’s, correct?

Lisa Riegel: Yes.

Angela Kelly: So she’s got a lot of information to share with you today. You’re going to find this so valuable, and I look forward to this conversation. So Lisa, thank you for being on the podcast.

Lisa Riegel: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Angela Kelly: Absolutely. So I’m going to let her introduce herself and her work a little bit. And one thing I know about Lisa is that she’s a former teacher, and as you guys know, I really work hard to encourage people who are relevant in the field of education, who have the background, who have done the job, who’ve been boots on the ground as much as possible, because I want educators to feel seen and heard. And Lisa is the real deal. She has done all of the work. She’s been an educator prior to the work that she’s doing now. And I really admire that and respect when we get educators in here who are working to help improve the quality of education in the sense of the experience for both students, staff members, and leaders. So Lisa, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Lisa Riegel: Yeah, well, thank you. I’m excited for our conversation.

Angela Kelly: Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your background and your teaching experience and how you kind of evolved into the work that you’re doing right now.

Lisa Riegel: Sure. So I started out as an English teacher. I taught English and journalism at a high school near Columbus. And then I did that for nine years, and then I went into administration at a career center, which was super interesting because I kind of learned like how schools are situated from an economic development standpoint. And then I had the opportunity to go do my doctoral work at Ohio State, or the Ohio State, as I have to say. And I focused in, I focused on leadership, but I was really interested in the human system. And a lot of leadership training is really around policy, org theory, the structure piece, but I was interested in how do you move people? How do you engage people?

And so I have been working in schools since, gosh, like 2010, and I’ve been helping school leaders to frame up change and to create the conditions necessary for those transformations to stick and persist. And so I work in schools. I do a lot of work with trauma-informed care because I went into the brain science, because I started when I was in my doctoral work, I was studying the social sciences like engagement and motivation and those kinds of things. And then I started thinking, real change happens in the actual brain. So what’s going on in there? So I started looking into the neuroscience of behavior, and it kind of opened my eyes to a whole different reality and a whole different reason why a lot of the change that I see principals hoping for just doesn’t happen.

Angela Kelly: Yes, yeah. Tell us a little bit more about that because this is something I have been exploring as well. In my work as a coach for school leaders, mentoring them not just on the skill set of leadership, but on the mindset and embodying what empowerment looks like. And then I realized, well, empowerment is the goal of education, right? We as educators are here to empower students, empower our teachers to be the best versions of themselves, to explore their own life, and to have as many opportunities as possible. And I agree with you, I think that one of the reasons that site leaders, district leaders, you know, in even in county and state, you know, all the way up in terms of educational leadership, why we feel like we’re maybe banging our head against the wall is because we aren’t really focusing on the regulation system, the internal regulation systems that happen that need to occur.

And, you know, I feel like I’ve really kind of fine-tuned it down to safety. We need to feel safe, not just physically safe. I know that’s a problem in our schools, of course, but we need to be able to regulate ourselves back to a sense of safety for baseline just to be able to be available for education. So I’m curious to hear more about the work you’re doing, what you found out in your research, and what you have developed to support classrooms, students, teachers, and site leaders to maintain an openness to learning and a safe place for learning from an internal standpoint.

Lisa Riegel: So I have a book called NeuroWell that really gets into like what kind of practices, routines, and culture do we need to have a healthy system. And then I have a book called Aspirations to Operations, which is really a leader’s guide book to making those transformations stick. But in both cases, the foundation for a healthy system and for fulfillment and empowerment is a sense of belonging. So, you know, how do we actually create a sense of belonging in the schools? And I think teachers, you know, for leaders, it’s difficult because teachers come in, they go in their classroom, and it’s a solo sport. You know, they’re alone a lot. So building some of that sense of a collective identity of like, when we’re here, we’re all part of this. And I think for students, it also makes a big difference because if I walk into a school every day and I don’t really feel like I belong or I feel othered or I’m not really comfortable, I don’t have that emotional safety, then I don’t feel a sense of belonging and I close down and disengage.

And then the other safety that I talk about is intellectual safety. If I go into a place and, and I think this applies to teachers and students as well, we’ve been talking about differentiation for 20 years, but when I go in schools, I don’t see a whole lot of it. I still see a lot of teacher-led whole group instruction. So if you’ve got students in the classroom who are not accessing the curriculum or not feeling it’s relevant, then they don’t have intellectual safety. And from a biology standpoint, their body, it’s the same thing. It’s a stressor. And then from the teacher’s side, one of the things I work with teams on is clarity. What do you want people to do? And I think we send teachers to trainings or we have somebody come in and do a training and then we say, well, they’re trained. So we should be implementing. There’s a whole lot that has to go on to support the human system side of change because change is scary.

So really the foundation is that sense of belonging. And there’s a social scientist, actually, it’s interesting, they started studying this out of the big diversity initiatives that we’ve had in this country. And they said, you know, we’ve kind of failed. Like people still hunker down with people who are just like they are. Like, we really don’t have like the stock photo pictures of close friends from all different backgrounds. So they said, what went wrong? So they said, well, let’s study a place that it isn’t that way. And they went to the military and they said, how is it that soldiers form these really tight bonds with each other that last for decades and what’s the difference? Because they’re from wildly different backgrounds.

And what they said is that it’s really this collective identity. When they are in that context, they are a soldier first. And then all the other differences are just what makes them unique. But they as a group identify together in that collective identity as a soldier. And, you know, then having time together over years and then, you know, all the other things that they do together, it creates these really strong ties. So when we think about that in schools, like coming from Ohio State, they have great collective identity. People want to be part of Buckeye Nation, even though, you know, they may be never attended there. So there’s a very strong collective identity of what it means to be a Buckeye. And so that kind of collective identity breeds a sense of belonging. And yet, when you look at a lot of schools, the collective identity is negative. It’s this stinks. I don’t want to be here. This place is mean. This place is dangerous.

So I think, you know, we do a lot of culture work in schools, but that culture work is a lot of words. And culture’s built through actions. And so how do we strategically build a culture that has a sense of collective identity and belonging, and then again, with the teachers as far as emotional safety, how are we building a place that now I come in, I feel like I belong, but I’m also safe intellectually and emotionally to engage.

Angela Kelly: Yes. I love what you said about the culture, and the military is a perfect example. And I was just thinking as you were speaking about that, like isn’t sport, I feel like some sports teams are the same way where when you’re on the team, regardless of what other team you came from when you think of professional sports, you are a member of that team. And colleges and universities are really good at creating a culture, which is just a feeling. When I was thinking about what is climate, what is culture, you know, we’ve been working on climate and culture in our schools for decades. It’s really about how people feel about themselves, about each other, about the collective, about the community. It’s how they feel regarding that climate and culture. And that is what perpetuates and creates that culture, right?

So when you’re saying, one, we need to be physically safe, two, we need to be mentally and emotionally safe, but we also need to be academically safe and socially safe, which all of those are intertwined, right? Because if you’re not feeling safe academically, you’re definitely not feeling safe socially. And it’s about creating safety on all of those levels. And that can be daunting for school leaders. So in your work, what were some elements that you found were accessible for school leaders, kind of tangible things where they could wrap their head around, first, creating their own safety to be able to go out and lead, but then to invite teachers and students into creating a collective culture of safety.

Lisa Riegel: So I think the easiest way to explain this is to think about what my eight C framework is. The first C is culture, and it’s about creating this collective identity. But then there’s three C’s that are about planning for change or improvement. So the first one is clarity. What do you want me to do? The second is coherence. And I had a school that they spent thousands of dollars on training for personalized learning, and then they bought direct instruction curriculum. That’s not coherent. And so now you’ve got teachers who are going to fail either way because so that doesn’t breed that sense of safety.

The third is cadence, and that’s really how fast can change happen, because something we don’t think about is that when teachers, you know, there’s a certain sense of identity and self that we have when we’re an expert or when we’re the experienced person. If I start to ask people to change their behavior or change their job or how they do business, I’m threatening that expertise, and that makes us super uncomfortable. So as we think about change, how do we clearly lay out incremental steps to change that are first of all, not scary, that are within a zone of proximal development, and then how do we support that on the way through? Recognizing that if I’m a brand new teacher, I’m just trying to figure out how to get the kids to sit down and how do I organize my time, where if I’m a teacher in mid-career, I might be ready for change. Or if I’m a teacher who’s a veteran who’s been very, you know, seasoned and is respected among the staff, I might be pushing back against it, and I actually might take a longer time to change. So those first three C’s are the clarity, coherence, and cadence.

Then there’s two C’s that are about engaging the people, and there’s coaching and collaboration. We put a lot of people in rooms and do really unproductive things. So designing purposeful collaboration, it’s a skill. And coaching as well. Like I see a lot of times in schools, we have teachers who are not doing what the principal wants them to do, but they’re not adequately coaching them to make changes. So then it causes conflict and it causes this sense of these teachers don’t want to do this or don’t want to do that, when the reality is maybe you haven’t led them to do that.

Then the last C’s are about sustainability, and they are communication and celebration. And those are the big ones. So back to your original question about culture, it starts by having strategic ways that we are doing action. Culture is a feeling, but how you get that feeling is through action, not through words and posters. And so how do we build much like a sports team? You know, do we have routines? Do we have taglines or sayings? Do we have things that say this is how we do things here and build that sense of collective identity?

But the second thing that we miss is celebrations. And I see a lot of, you know, principals that will think of culture and be like, well, we’re doing an appreciation lunch or we’re doing this. And it’s like, that’s nice. People appreciate that. A free meal is great. But real, authentic celebration that ends up actually reinforcing your culture is when you see someone doing the actions that build the culture you want, and you are celebrating them for doing those actions. It has to be tied to what you want to see and hear, which goes back to that clarity piece. If you don’t have clarity of what it looks like, you’re never going to get there.

Angela Kelly: Right. Yes. And that is where the work that I do is helping principals and district leaders learn how to coach. Like you were saying, part of helping the staff to help students is the capacity to coach and mentor. And they are different. Coaching and mentoring are two different things, and we have to break those down. But no one taught school leaders the skill of mentorship and coaching and the difference between the two, how it looks and feels for the person who’s mentoring and the person who’s being mentored. And that’s a skill that we can add to enhance our leadership capacity. So I appreciate you bringing that up.

Every C, it’s so interesting, every C that you mentioned is something I have experienced as a school leader and as a teacher, the presence of it and the lack of it. And to see the gap between the two, I have felt them, you know, and experienced them both as a leader and as a teacher and a district leader, because the further I went up, and maybe this is the same for you, the further I went up, it was almost like the bigger the gap actually grew in terms of culture, in terms of my connection with kids and families and communities, and then the communication gap, it just seemed like all the C’s got a little bit stretched out as you go up into the leadership realms. And so bringing us all together as a district, bringing us all together as a school, and then teachers learning the skill of mentor and coaching with their children, with the students in their class, so they can bring the students together to be members of a classroom team or a grade level team or a department team, depending on what area of, you know, you’re teaching. So I find this so fascinating.

And the question that comes up for most people, at least that I work with, boots on the ground is, but how? Everyone wants to know the how. And I try to teach them the who in order to do the how. So what are your tips and strategies for getting to the how through the work that you do?

Lisa Riegel: The main thing to know, well, there’s the neuroscience, the real change starts in the brain, right? So understanding the brain science can make people much more effective at leading, coaching, mentoring, teaching, whatever it is. And so any behavior we have, whether it’s adult or kids, work behavior, social behaviors, academic behaviors, is really the intersection of our biology and our context. And so if we understand the biology of how perceptions are made and how the stress system works and what triggers that stress system and what happens to our ability to think and socialize during that, if we understand that, then we reframe the way we look at problem behaviors in staff and students.

The second is the context. We ultimately control that context. And so if we create a safe, supportive, proactive context, then we reduce the stressors in the brain, and our context actually can shape the biology of our brain. So if it would be helpful, I can explain to you how a perception’s formed.

Angela Kelly: Yeah, please do.

Lisa Riegel: Our brain is like a giant department, and 80% of the departments in our brain are below our nose and unconscious. So 80% of the thinking that we are doing that impacts how we behave, we don’t know we’re thinking it. And so part of what I teach people is to be more self-aware. If you’re self-aware and you’re self-regulating, then you have self-control. And when you have self-control, you make better decisions.

So your brain has all these departments. Perceptions are formed in the limbic system, and the limbic system does not know time and can’t tell a story. And you have a little component in your limbic system called the thalamus. And I actually name him. He’s the data manager. I call him Harold. So Harold is in the thalamus. So Harold’s job is to take information from the vagus nerve, and the vagus nerve tells us, you know, is your heart pounding okay, is your stomach empty and like it’s our systems manager, monitoring systems, monitoring where our body is in space so that we’re not going to fall off a cliff. So the vagus nerve, if it’s agitated, and like prolonged stress causes stomach issues and heart palpitations. So the vagus nerve sends information to Harold and says, hey, body’s running okay or body’s not running okay.

Then Harold also takes in all the sensory data from the environment, what we see, taste, hear, smell, everything. And he goes into an amygdala, which is in our limbic brain, and it’s where our sensory memories are stored. And he says, what I’m seeing, hearing, tasting, touching reminds me of this. And he makes sensory associations. And it’s important to note they’re not story associations, not, I remember a time that it was just like this. It’s just sensory associations. So at that point then, he decides whether or not we need to be alarmed and then sends information to our security monitor on what to do.

But the perceptions, those associations are formed by the way that our brain puts two things together. So for example, when I was a kid growing up, my parents were divorced. My dad was always late picking me up. I spent a good chunk of my youth sitting on the front stoop waiting for my dad. My little eight-year-old brain put time and love and worth together. It’s a faulty association, but my brain put that there, right? Even through my 20s, like if I was, if my friends were late or my husband was late, like I would get angry or I would get anxious, and sometimes to the point where it was like, I was just annoyed and I couldn’t come down off of it, and it would ruin my evening. Once I understood that association, now the CEO part of my brain, which is me and my personality, is able to tell Harold, hey, Harold, don’t put those two things together.

And so in the setting of like a principal, you know, a lot of times we’re coaching about the what, what happened. What we need to be coaching about is the why. Why is this dysregulating you? You know, for example, I might be like, you know, Angela is always needling me, she’s always criticizing me, she’s always, and you think you’re helping me. And in my brain, feedback is dangerous, right? And who knows why, but it is. So I am already dysregulated. Harold and my security monitor, who I call Bob. So, you know, Harold and Bob have hijacked my brain and said you’re in danger, and now they’re running the show and I’m not running the show, which is why later when I calm down, I can be like, why did I even say that? I don’t even believe that. Why did I even act that way? Because Harold and Bob were in protective mode.

So our perceptions, it’s like a banana, think of a banana as reality, and then a whole bunch of different filters or screens. If you take a banana and shove it through those screens, on the other side, it’s still a banana, but it doesn’t look like one. So understanding how those perceptions are formed can give us a little bit of empathy when we see someone struggling, and it can help us to keep our professional hat on because it probably has nothing to do with us. It has to do with how that brain is taking something in the context and associating it with something negative from the past.

Angela Kelly: This is so good. I love the way you articulate this because when I became a school principal and I started sitting in IEP meetings, I had an excellent IEP team, and they were so good at navigating the IEP conversations around the why. So, you know, that the ABC, there’s an antecedent, the behavior, and then I don’t remember what the C was.

Lisa Riegel: Yep, the consequence.

Angela Kelly: Yes, the consequence. And so, you know, everyone wants to focus on the B and the C, but they didn’t want to focus on the A. And so I learned from them, there’s always a reason behind a behavior. And then I got certified in coaching and I was like, oh, we have thoughts and we have connections, we have perceptions, and we’re looking through certain lenses and certain facets, and that’s triggering parts of our body and our brain that we’re not, you know, in the driver’s seat even.

So once I learned that, it was such an eye-opener that every behavior, whether a small person or an adult person, every behavior, there is something driving that. To them, to their body, there’s a reason. We might not understand it, but that’s what our goal is to seek to understand at least to have empathy or compassion for and to know it’s actually another, like you said, department of the brain that’s taking the driver, I always call it the driver’s seat, right, that’s kind of driving the train here. And if we can simply have the awareness, and just that can be the hook, there’s always a reason behind the behavior and to separate, you said also like, you know, 99.9% of the time, and I would say almost 100, like it’s not really about us, it’s about a past association or something that they have connected. And I love how you use the example of the sitting there, the time, the worth, like that I’m sure there’s so many people who just could really feel that emotion as your eight-year-old self. I think about smells, like how your body associates certain smells. And every time you smell that, like you have a physical reaction, right?

Lisa Riegel: Yep. Yep. And it can be good or bad.

Angela Kelly: Yeah, like it can be yes, it can be loving, it can be your the smell of your baby’s head or it can be like, you know, I think of nursing home smell, like I just like that to me like brings sadness and pain, but there are just certain senses of our body.

Lisa Riegel: You see that in schools a lot too. You know, when I’m in classrooms with teachers, especially if they work in areas where a lot of the kids are coming from poverty or have a lot of trauma in their life, are you raising your voice? Like the tone of voice can be a trigger. And there’s actually a story I write about in my book that’s incredible. This kid had, he had been removed from his home because he’d been sexually molested by his father. And so he was in kind of a boarding school, orphanage-type school. And he was doing great. And then all of a sudden, he moved up to another grade and the wheels came off the bus, and he was a mess.

And they couldn’t figure out what was going on. And this is the other thing I think that we do is we attribute so much behavior to your character. And the reality, you can only attribute behavior to character if the person who’s holding the character, if the CEO of your brain is making those decisions. If Harold and Bob are doing it, that’s not where character lives in your brain. So anyways, this kid, there was a psychiatrist there the one day and he went in to meet with his father. And his father smelled like Old Spice. And the psychiatrist was thinking there, thinking about his dad and thinking about like fishing trips and, you know, he said he could almost smell the cigar that his dad used to smoke when they would go fishing and stuff.

And then he looked at the kid and the kid was not having that same reaction. So he went to the teacher and he said, what kind of deodorant do you wear? And he said, Old Spice. He said, would you be willing to switch to like an unscented deodorant? And they had a kind of restorative conversation with the kid that said, this is why you’re so angry all the time in here. So if we take this out of the context and get rid of that association, and the kid and this teacher started developing a relationship and it turned around.

So context impacts our behavior, and so we have control over that. And I see so many classrooms that are about control and compliance. They’re not about building relationships and building student agency and voice. It’s I have to get through the curriculum. I’m too busy to deal with your problem right now. I’m going to throw you out. And then I send you to another context, and maybe the principal deescalates the kid and they have a great relationship, but I’m walking right back into the dangerous context and I dysregulate again, and then the teacher’s like, this kid just won’t stop. And it’s like, you have to change the context that you’re operating in to make it safe, supportive, and proactive for that kid.

So I think understanding the brain science, it just gives us for me, it gives me a little bit of humility that like while I think I’m in a lot of control of things, I’m only in control once I’m self-aware and self-regulating. And so that’s become a really important part of my life just personally is to spend time to really take care of my brain and to get to know my brain in a way so that the part of my brain that is me is the one that’s most of the time driving the bus.

Angela Kelly: Yes. This is 100% this is what I do with the school leader, the district leaders, and what is so critical is that you did this example around the principal being able to regulate. So many times teachers will be so upset because the student cannot regulate with them in their environment in their classroom and they can’t see why they, you know, they have their blinders on to it. Then the student comes out, gets regulated, and then the teacher is almost offended that you sent the student back only for them to dysregulate once again. And, you know, that cycle is very common in schools.

And this is where our teachers, like school and district leaders can support in learning this work for themselves. So reading your book, you know, and whatever work that you do with schools and being in weekly coaching programs like my own, this kind of work that we do internally as leaders is how we learn to regulate ourselves in order to help our teachers learn the process. Like this, it’s not something that we’re taught in our teacher programs, in our administrative, you know, prep programs. It’s just it hasn’t really been discussed. We’re starting to explore it as you said, like there’s been a lot of brain research because people are so wanting to regulate students. And when you said you see a lot of classrooms with a lot of control, and that’s because they’ve got pacing guides and they’re expected to be on this page on this day, that’s happening because teachers are dysregulated, because they’re so afraid to be authentic, to take time to build relationships, to stop the lesson and do a co-regulation exercise with their class when there’s been a classroom event or somebody’s been really upset and maybe had to step out to regulate themselves.

You know, we don’t think about the other 29 students who saw that dysregulation are now also afraid or dysregulated themselves. And bringing this to the surface and normalizing conversations around what regulation looks like, what self-awareness looks like, and being able to as a group, which is another form of that collective community and culture, we as a culture stop, self-aware, self-reflect, and get back to self-regulation.

Lisa Riegel: Well, and I think that, you know, this is a leadership challenge because we measure what matters and what we measure matters. And right now, we have the tail wagging the dog. We’ve moved away from teaching kids to teaching content. And you know, it used to be if you had a kid who struggled to learn or maybe was a little bit of a stinker at times, they were more of just a challenge, and you’d work really hard to get a relationship with them. Now they’re an obstacle because I got to move through and I got to get you to testing.

And so principals, if they agree with what we’re saying here, and most of the time they do, they’re like, yeah, these teachers, they won’t develop relationships. And I’m like, that’s because you’re not rewarding it. You’re not clarifying it, you’re not celebrating it, you’re not measuring it. You’re not looking at…

Angela Kelly: You’re not giving permission.

Lisa Riegel: You know, and so teachers are very dysregulated. And so I’ve done a lot of work in schools even on how we can work as teacher teams to become more self-aware and self-regulated and how we can set up collaborative practices that will be calming versus, you know, like so many times I go into teacher-based team meetings and there is so much either underlying rage or just flat out like complaining and Yes. The point is you can’t reason with a kid when they’re not regulated. You can’t reason with a teacher either. So I think that principals understanding the biology behind it, it removes the judgment. It’s like this is this person’s brain, and so let’s give them a little grace and space. Let’s put a supportive context in place to help them fulfill, you know, their potential and to feel fulfilled in their work.

Angela Kelly: Yes. And principals, there’s two things I want to say right now. Number one, your staff is your classroom. So thinking about your staff, not as children, but as members of a collective where you want to understand what makes them tick, and you have to differentiate. And for some people, they fly on their own and they’re very able to self-regulate. Other teachers are brand new and they need that mentorship, you know, with an instructional coach support. And then you’ve got teachers who have limitless potential, but because they don’t have the skill set, they don’t have the skill set of awareness or, you know, self-coaching, self-regulation, that you might find them a challenge and an obstacle. And the way that we see teachers is the way that teachers see students. So if we cannot see them as an obstacle, but more of a curiosity and like seeking to understand, like how can I work with this person to help them feel their best? Because when teachers feel better, they teach better. So it’s really full circle.

And the other thing I really want to offer principals is I know Lisa and I are having this conversation and it feels like, wow, that’s a lot to take on my plate. And maybe I don’t have the authority or I’m not in the position to make these changes. And I now I have to try and sell the district on this or I have to wait till the district gets on board with this conversation. I would invite you to consider that you don’t have to wait for the entire district to have some big initiative to get on board. Now there’s a self-regulation initiative. It’s not that. It’s you learning how to do it by your, read her book, take her courses, join EPC, whatever it is that works for you, but do something that helps you learn how to do it yourself first. And just in that, then you can start to model it, you can start to be it, and the energy, I always talk about the energetics of leadership.

The energy that you are in, when that starts to shift, like Lisa and I both do this personally on a daily basis, I’m assuming, right? This is not, it’s not a one and done. You don’t learn it once and then you’re done. It’s like going to the gym, it’s like taking a shower. It’s something you do on a regular basis. And when you start to do that, as your energy changes, you start to interact with teachers in a different way, they’re going to feel that change and eventually that conversation can kind of spread out into your school, but you don’t have to wait for the district to give you permission to learn how to self-regulate. Would you say that’s true, Lisa?

Lisa Riegel: Yeah. And I think that schools have a tendency to make initiatives, right? And so it always feels like one more thing. But what we’re talking about, like my eight C framework is a framework. It’s a framework, it’s lens, it’s glasses. You put these glasses on and it’s a lens through which you see your work. And so like even with the eight C framework, it’s what you’re already doing, it’s just do it better. If you understand the science of behavior and you understand the obstacles that you’re going to face, you can be more proactive about how you’re designing and supporting change. So it’s not one more thing. It’s a pair of glasses that are going to clarify the whole process and help you understand where things are falling down. And I would argue that when you are self-aware and you’re self-regulating and you feel a sense of self-control, you’re happier, you’re healthier, you’re more successful. So it’s actually also a way to become a better leader and become a better person as a leader for people.

You know, when I used to teach at Ohio State, you know, they’d ask them, write your leadership platform. And I always thought that was kind of a dumb assignment because I was like, it should be one sentence. I lead in a way that others follow. That’s it, because it doesn’t matter what, you know, in the same way, I don’t care if you had a bad day, teacher, you’ve got these kids in front of you, you got to teach them. When you’re leading, it doesn’t matter what you prefer in a leader. It’s what your staff needs in a leader, and it’s being nimble and flexible enough to be able to be the leader they need you to be.

And so I think sometimes we get into these conversations about, you know, I’m going to be a transformative leader, transformational or aspirational or servant leader or all of these things. All of those, you know, I always used to say, I was a great teacher for a certain set of kids. There is no such thing as a great teacher, period. You’re a great teacher for certain kids. Some teachers are amazing at AP, some teachers are amazing working with at-risk kids. So it’s the same kind of thing with the leader is that a great leader is not a great leader in every context because the people in the context should be driving the type of leadership that the leader is using.

Angela Kelly: Yes. That I love using the eight C’s as a lens. I always talk about the lens through which changes the perspective, just like when you go to the optometrist. So you look, let’s look at this situation. So any obstacle, challenge, you know, that you’re facing, look through the lens of culture, look through the lens of communication, like and then see like, is this a culture thing? Is this a connection thing? Is this a communication thing? Is this, you know, a collaboration thing? And looking through to see, it helps you, and this is the when people ask me the how, this is the how. The how is slowing down and not making one decision based on one set of rules or one set of expectations. It’s looking at a school through its complexity, through all the facets. It’s like a diamond and it has all these, you know, many facets. And if you are willing to like explore and allow something to take time and seek to understand it, not from just a, let’s just like check the box, we got this solved, but from a more in-depth analysis of it, from a human analysis, from the humanity of education, I think that we can start to see and understand, which helps us expand our capacity to lead. That is how you become a better leader.

Lisa Riegel: Right. And I think one of the things that I always ask a lot of questions when I first start working with a leader and, you know, listening for the problem under the complaint. So like if a leader is like, oh, my staff hates meetings, I’m like, okay, so you don’t organize productive, useful meetings, right? Because people don’t hate meetings. People hate dumb meetings. So it’s like if you are structuring really strong collaboration that’s meaningful and purposeful, people will want to engage in it. And so, you know, I hear that sometimes or I hear, you know, this staff just they are traditional, they won’t bend their practices. And I’m like, okay, that’s a cadence problem, because you gave them training that is so far different than what’s going on right now that they’re scared to take the first step because it’s too risky.

So how do we start to stairstep some stepping stones to get them from where they are to where you want them to be? Or it can be my staff never reads my email. They don’t read stuff and I can’t get them to do the actions I want. And I think, okay, that’s a communication problem and or a meeting problem. You know, if I go to a staff meeting and you read everything you already sent me, you’ve just disincentivized me to do the reading on my own because you’re going to sit through it. So you have to set some norms about professionalism that like when we come to a meeting, like one of the things I always suggest is put a five-minute timer and say, you guys got the directives and announcements that, you know, of what we’re doing. We have five minutes. Who has questions? And if you go past five minutes, you say, submit them in writing and I’ll submit them back to you. So you train your staff that they are expected to read that ahead of time because you have other things that are more purposeful that you’re going to do when you think about how expensive meetings are. When you put every single person in that meeting, and you’re spending that time reading announcements, like it’s such a waste of money and resources and opportunity.

So I think like, you know, the Aspirations to Operations, I mean, I’m going to say this, but I think it should be required reading for all leaders because it really does help them position like the brain science of behavior and motivation, engagement, all of that, it positions that, but it truly gives them a lens when they start to say, okay, what are your five biggest gripes on your staff or that are happening in your building that are so frustrating? You can almost always point directly to one or two of the C’s. I may be great at the planning C’s and really stink at the engagement C’s. And so then I want to really focus in on those two to improve my coaching and the collaborative teams and all of that, or maybe sustainability isn’t happening because I’m not sustaining it. I’m not celebrating it. I’m not doing those things. So I think it’s a framework that can help fix the holes in the ship, and it can also, if there’s a lot of holes in the ship, it can help you build a new one.

Angela Kelly: Yes, absolutely. What I love so much about this conversation is that I feel like as educators on the outside of education, studying the problem with a different lens, because when you’re, sometimes when you’re in it, you can’t really see it. So, you know, I’ve been out for about 10 years and you’ve been doing this for a while now. When we look inward, we all are coming to these almost like universal understandings. And it really comes down to the humanity, the human part of education, which is what’s going on internally? And the institution of education, not there’s no one person to blame or, but the institution itself has evolved in such a way that it has externalized teaching and learning. It’s externalized the experience, and that leaves people feeling vulnerable, unsafe, unseen, unheard, uncared for.

I had an interview, maybe about a year ago, a couple of professors wrote a book, like something about it, teachers need to know they matter. And I think that’s that sense of belonging. We have to know at an individual level as a student, as a teacher, as a support staff member, and every human on your campus, whether they’re the custodian or the bus driver or the food service, hair professionals, that they matter, that without them, the system does not function as efficiently.

Lisa Riegel: And I hear a lot of leaders give lip service to that. You know, they’ll at the convocation, you guys are wonderful, you all this, we have the greatest staff in the world. But words don’t make culture, action makes culture. And so when teachers don’t feel, and that’s one of the number one things I hear from teachers is like, we need more support. I don’t have support. But yet they can’t even define what support they need. And then the principal is like, well, I gave them all this stuff. They’ve had this training, they’ve done all these things. And I’m like, there is a missing piece in here because you have given them a lot of things, but yet for whatever reason, whether it’s that you made it too scary to change or you haven’t celebrated.

And you know, there’s one of the things I talk about in the book is seven conditions have to exist for us to create a new habit. And so the first is that the easiest way to do this is with a metaphor. So say you and I decide we’re going to get healthy and start eating healthier. Then the first thing is we have to know where to go instead. So say that you and I go down to the Mexican restaurant and, you know, slug down a couple of margaritas and a bag of chips every week a couple of times. We have to know that instead of doing that, we should go to a vegetable restaurant. If I said to you, let’s go to the Golden Corral instead, that’s not a better choice. We assume people know the right choice and are deciding not to do it. But a lot of times people don’t know where to go instead.

Second is that they have to have self-awareness to drive past the exit because it’s a habit. And you and I on Tuesdays and Thursdays when we go out, Tuesday, I’m going to pull my car out and head right to the Mexican restaurant. I have to have the self-awareness to stop and say, I wanted to do something different. I’m going to go to this other place. The third is that we have to be willing to be uncomfortable. Like we’re going to have to put stuff in our mouth we’ve never eaten, vegetables we’ve never heard of, right? Same thing with teachers and I think teachers are under such a microscope and so much pressure that being uncomfortable is not worth it. And so they dig their heels in and refuse to do new things, even when they’re simple things that they can change in their classrooms.

So we have to have that will to be uncomfortable. We have to have the energy to persist. Eventually you and I are going to be like, you know what? I’ve had a bad day, I have no energy. I don’t care to go. Let’s just go back there, right? We’re going to fall off the wagon. And this is when most Americans give up on their goals because then you and I sit and we’d say, well, we were never meant to be healthy. So I’ll see you here again, right? Versus, okay, we’ve been really good and we had one day that was really bad and we’re going to get right back on the bus. And then we have to have the persistence over time because it takes a long time for a neural connection to become automatic in our brain. And we have to have the support.

And so when I look at whether it’s professional development for teachers, it’s the implementation of an initiative, it’s new instructional practices, it’s behavior planning with kids, any of those things when I look at it through that lens, you’re asking for a change in behavior, and I oftentimes don’t see even half of the supportive elements that any human, the smartest person on earth needs these things in order to successfully create a new habit. So I think it’s really about being wiser and more strategic about what you want to see. And I think that understanding, you know, humans and the human system side of education is critical for doing that.

Angela Kelly: Yes. Oh, so, so, so good. Because it really does come down to that example was so relevant and so tangible. And I think about the emotions behind each step. And that’s where we have to understand, we’re going to feel, when we just make that decision to not go to the Mexican restaurant, we’re going to feel deprivation. We need to acknowledge that deprivation, validate it, and allow it to exist without giving into that, without like trying to get rid of the feeling of deprivation. You’re going to feel deprivation. And then, you know, there are emotions that come with this awareness and these decisions.

And, you know, that is the thing I think we just haven’t been taught is like, how do I allow myself to feel deprived and still take the action I want to take? That’s that moment of like being aware of the emotion, allowing it, knowing you can handle that emotion, that’s your empowerment expanding is like, I can handle this. This emotion is just temporary. And what do I want to feel on the other side of not eating the Mexican is like feeling really good in my body, physically, feeling good mentally, emotionally, knowing that I did this. And then the thing about the teachers I was thinking too is, I think one of the hardest things as a human is to take ownership, is to take ownership of our empowerment, to take ownership that we have the power to go and be self-aware and to make different decisions and take different actions. It’s hard to own, like it’s very hard to own a mistake. It feels awful to see the mistake, to take ownership, to see that you’re like as a principal, people are like, yeah, you’re right. I don’t really do effective meetings. That feels terrible to own that, but then from there, you start to like, okay, what’s one thing I can do? But that ownership piece is so challenging emotionally. All of your work goes back to this is like being able to regulate those feelings that come up.

Lisa Riegel: And you can only regulate them if you know they’re there. And you know one thing too, and it doesn’t always have to be so serious. Like my husband and I do pity pride. And so like, you know, sometimes I like, I’ll just be like, I need some pity. Like because, you know, like I’ll say, I’m on the diet, I really want that cake and I can’t have it and I’m feeling sad and I need pity. And then, you know, he’ll come over and be like, I pity you. And sometimes that’s all I need is just recognition that I feel this way and I’m sad. And then the on the other side, that’s pride, but I’m proud of you that you are making the choice, you know? So we do pity pride.

Angela Kelly: That is so fun.

Lisa Riegel: It’s simple and it basically gets it out and it states it out there, so it doesn’t fester and it removes because I think the other thing that people don’t realize or think about is that all when Harold and Bob are running the show, they generate a tremendous amount of shame and guilt. And so when we think about how do we release shame and guilt, part of it is to recognize that those decisions were not made really by us. They were made by that limbic part of our brain. And so really the solution to that is be a better leader in your brain. If you’re a good leader, kind of like my late example, I can tell Harold, don’t couple those two things together. I have more control over how I respond in situations because I’ve gone through sort of the introspection and learning that it took for me to understand what was going on in there. And I advocate that we should be teaching kids about their brain from day one. From the first day they come, we should be teaching them about their brain. We should be putting routines in place that are good for the brain. And not just, you know, I see, I see pieces of it like, you know, the wiggle break or whatever for younger kids. And it’s like, okay, but what I see in a classroom is oftentimes the wiggle break is used as a tool for compliance and control.

Angela Kelly: Now sit back down because you’ve had five minutes to wiggle, yes.

Lisa Riegel: It’s not used as a tool that is to practice skills. I think we do pieces and parts in schools that are great, but if we just put those glasses on and looked through it with a little bit of a different lens, like a NeuroWelll lens, that’s safe, supportive, and proactive. If we just look at it through that, through the brain science of it, all of a sudden we’ll be like, oh, well, that’s why that works so well. Well, yeah, because it’s aligned with how our brain needs it to work, right? And then other things that you’re like, we’re doing, you know, I see this with like positive behavior intervention supports all the time. It is such a time-consuming, expensive waste of time in most schools because the way it’s implemented is not aligned with the brain science on changing behaviors.

And so that’s one of the things I teach about in the NeuroWell book is how to transition your PBIS system. You don’t throw it out and do a new initiative. You look at what you’re doing and you say, okay, these were good ideas. For some reason they’re not landing. How do we start to make tweaks to it that are aligned? And you’d be amazed how some of the easiest little things make all the difference in the world to make that a really powerful behavior change system.

Angela Kelly: That is a beautiful way to end this. There are simple ways to change the internal systems. We don’t have to break down the whole paradigm, the whole institution and build a whole new one in order to make change. Simplicity actually is key.

Lisa Riegel: Right. The problems are overwhelming, but the solutions are really quite simple. They’re not easy. They’re simple.

Angela Kelly: And they’re not comfortable.

Lisa Riegel: Right. They’re simple solutions, but you have to be intentional, strategic, and make it a habit in order for them to become second nature. So the problems are bigger than the solution.

Angela Kelly: Yes, that’s just take that with you today, school leaders, as you’re listening to this, that the problem you see in front of you is much bigger than the solution. So you don’t have to match problem solution in size. You just have to be able to match it in your bandwidth, your internal bandwidth, your capacity to feel, your capacity to explore, your capacity to stay curious and to lead yourself and others with a lot of compassion, grace, and space as you’re navigating the emotional experience of learning and teaching and leading.

So Lisa, thank you for your expertise. It is such a delight to meet you. I can’t wait. I’m getting both books. I want to read them, share them with the world, and I look forward to continued conversations with you because I do think that this work coupled with mentorship, coaching, and just that permission to explore brain research, how the brain is working in our students and our staff members and ourselves, and to just keep that front of mind as we’re leading, as we’re teaching, and as we’re learning, I really do think that we can create significant impact and empower people throughout our school systems worldwide.

Lisa Riegel: Yeah. I’m happy to come back anytime. Even if we want to do little segments on each C and go into the tools and go into how you do it.

Angela Kelly: That’d be great. That would be wonderful. So we’re going to drop the links to her resources in the show notes for you guys and any other information she has. Lisa, any final words?

Lisa Riegel: No, this is my mission and passion because I feel like when people take the information that are in the book or that if I do keynotes or workshops or whatever, when they come back from that, they feel that sense of empowerment and agency because we get to choose. We can choose to be happy and fulfilled. It’s not easy. We have to understand it has to be intentional and strategic, but at the end of the day, people are really struggling right now and they don’t have to be. There’s a way out.

Angela Kelly: There is. Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional, right?

Lisa Riegel: Yeah, there you go.

Angela Kelly: Let’s support you all. Thank you again for your expertise. Wonderful information, wonderful book. And I invite you to look through these lenses. I do think it can very quickly change not just your perspective, but your actual experience of school leadership. So with that, we will end. Thank you again. It’s been wonderful. And I look forward to more conversations. And for you, Empowered Principals, have a beautiful week. We’ll talk to you guys next week. Take good care. Bye.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Empowered Principal® Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, please visit AngelaKellyCoaching.com where you can sign up for weekly updates and learn more about the tools that will help you become an emotionally fit school leader.

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