Ep #224: Coaching, Money Mindset, and the Interview Process with Jena Damiani

Hello empowered principals. Welcome to episode 224.

Welcome to The Empowered Principal Podcast, a not so typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host certified life coach Angela Kelly Robeck.

Angela: Hello, my empowered leaders. Happy Tuesday, and welcome to this special episode of the Empowered Principal podcast. I have with me today one of my favorite clients. They’re all my favorite, but she’s my really, really favorite. They’re all my really, really favorites. What can I say? I love every single client, but Jena has been with me, probably one of the longest clients I’ve had. She’s been on the show a couple of times. One on the mastermind interview episode. One, maybe twice. Is this your second time or first time, Jena?

Jena:  Second time.

Angela: Okay. This is her second time doing solo interview, but she’s also in the mastermind. So welcome, Jena. Welcome back to the podcast.

Jena: Thank you. So nice to be here.

Angela: Oh, I’m so glad you’re here. I’m so excited. I’m bubbling. Jena and I just have so much fun together that it’s hard to get off the phone with each other. It’s hard to say goodbye. Sometimes my phone just dials clients unexpectedly. I know. I was joking with Dina the other day how I have a new client that’s at her old time. I keep calling her every time. It’s like autopilot. So funny.

Anyway, so I’m glad you’re here. We’re excited to talk about something a little bit different, but I do want you to hang with us and see how the dots are all connected here. So today we’re going to talk about, we’re going to start with money mindset. Jena is going to be very courageous and share her journey with you through coaching and how we’ve made amazing gains. We’re going to talk about the process of interviewing.

So a lot of you know I’ve been offering webinars, and I’ve been doing trainings. I’ve been trying to help school leaders get into the position that was meant for them. To get into their ideal school leadership position, either moving to another school, moving up into the district level, moving to another position within education, or perhaps moving out even. Whatever ends up being a right fit for you.

Jena and I’ve been having these conversations for a while now. She has been on an amazing journey. She’s going to share that with you. Then we’re gonna tie it together. How money mindset and the interview process go hand in hand. So Jena, tell all the things.

Jena:  Goodness. Where shall I begin?

Angela: Where shall you begin?

Jena:  Well, we’re starting with money? Correct?

Angela: Yeah. Let’s start with money. Because it’s not a topic most principals slow down to think about, but how we think about one thing is how we think about everything. money tends to be a high trigger topic for a lot of people because it’s one of our top assets, right? We’ve got our brain, our money, and our time. Those three assets are what create our lives. so money is a big trigger for people.

So I want everybody who’s listening to really slow down and allow yourself—If you have to listen to this and pause and think about your own thoughts and notice your own thoughts as Jena is speaking about her own money mindset experience. I

really want to encourage people to take the time to process what’s going on for you as you think about money. Your relationship with money, how you think about it, how you feel about it, how you spend it, how much time you spend with your money and planning for it and saving it, making it, having it, spending it, donating it. All the things we do with our money right? So just be mindful as Jena sharing her journey and her story with you today.

Jena:  Okay, so I guess I just will start and just say if you are like cringing right now because you feel like this is about money then this is probably—You need to hear this. Because I think that’s probably step number one is it’s totally fine to talk about money. Anyway. So Angela and I were working together, you know as my coach and you know, as a principal, and I guess you were really the first person to shine the light on this. Because through our coaching sessions what kept coming up a lot of times was money. That was, of course, in the form of my salary, and the things I was sharing with you about that.

I guess I had brought it up enough times that you kind of really made me take a look at my thoughts and really dig further down. Like is it really that you just aren’t feeling, you know, whatever, valued by your salary or is there more there? So the more you kind of probed, the more we uncovered.

Which was very much like as much as I like to consider myself to have a growth mindset as a friend and as a principal, I had a really fixed mindset when it came to money. And didn’t realize how deep rooted things from my childhood and just sometimes even society, how that kind of all in a sneaky kind of way played a part into forming this story, which is really all that it was. A gosh darn story. It was a story about money. we all know that stories can be changed.

So that’s the good thing here. If you are connected to anything that I’ll share, this is all things that, you know, you can work on and things can get better. But yeah. I mean I just I saw money as being just very fixed mindset. Like, I had really negative thoughts and feelings around debt. I made it mean that it kind of was sort of like a failure if you had any sort of debt.

I made money mean that—I kind of limited myself that okay I’m a teacher, teachers make between this amount of money in this amount of money. Okay now I’m a principal. So principals make between this amount of money and this amount of money. So I really wasn’t thinking outside the box and thinking about all the possibilities that that could be there for me. Gosh, Angela, I mean there’s so much that we talked about with money. Is there’s something.

Angela: I know. First, I just want to commend you for how courageous this conversation is because I want people to know like she’s still working on this. This is not something that we fixed and now there’s a pretty bow on it. All of us still have levels of scarcity around money because society has taught us to believe that money is the all end be all. We should have a lot of it. We should always have more of it. We should hoard it and hold on to it.

Like of course, we’re afraid to not have it. of course, we feel either guilt or shame or doubt or scarcity around it at some level. Doesn’t matter which level you’re at or how much income you have or don’t have. It’s not the number that matters. It matters what you think and feel about it.

So first of all, just like it’s hard to talk about it. I just think you’re being super courageous right now. One thing I want to say is very early on in our coaching together, it was in your first year. One of the first things we talked about was like the belief that you weren’t making enough as a school leader. you actually like per diem kind of went down like.

Jena: Didn’t I. I 100% did,

Angela: Yeah. The amount of time you worked.

Jena:  To back this up. Yes.

Angela: Yeah, it was a math equation. Mathematically, her income had gone down in some crazy way. so we worked on that. what I remember is that you got a mid-year raise.

Jena:  I did.

Angela: Do you remember that? Like a $10,000.

Jena:  I got a10,000 mid-year salary adjustment, which is crazy, right?

Angela: Here’s the thing. The reason she got the $10,000 raise mid-year. Number one, people don’t believe that’s possible because it doesn’t typically happen. But now we know it’s possible because you’re not the only person that’s received a mid-year bonus, a mid-year salary increase as an educator. So number one, if you think you can’t get a raise, you’re wrong. Like it is possible.

number two, Jena created that with her thought. Because we were thinking about money and the value that she had to offer as a principal. The more herself concept grew. what I mean by that is like when she believed she had a lot to offer and she was giving a high level of value to her district through her work, what happened was she showed up with this high energy and high value. her school leaders saw that, and they wanted her to stay which created demand. They offered her this mid-year raise so that she wouldn’t leave. Because she was.

Like factually, her district was one of the lower paid principalships in the county. it could have been very easy for her to leave and go find something that paid her more, but they saw her value because she decided she was valuable. Super key to point out. So here’s what we know. We create money with our thoughts. We create.

Jena: Yes.

Angela: Yeah, we create money. We actually create income with our thoughts.

Jena: Yeah, it’s really just that simple. I mean it’s simple, but it’s hard at the same time. Because another thought that you helped me through as just another proof to this is you, through our coaching, said—Basically I said to you money, I feel like money comes in, and no sooner does it come in, money goes out. Again, this is not an overnight fix.

So through a lot of different coaching sessions, we kind of uncovered, you know, back when I was a child, we didn’t have a lot of money. that’s kind of how money was when I was a kid. Money would come in, and then money would leave. I was always, you know, safe and taken care of, but we didn’t have money, if that makes sense.

so even though I wanted that as a grown adult, I was, in a way, my mind was just mimicking at that point all that I had really known and thought about money. so now that I don’t think that way any longer. I mean I haven’t got another $10,000 raise. So it’s not like I have all this extra funds coming in. It’s the same as it was before, but I now have more money. it was just from changing my thoughts.

Angela: It’s so cool, isn’t it?

Jena: It’s very empowering.

Angela: So what thoughts are you thinking about money now that have shifted for you? Because this has happened like fairly recently, like in the last month or two.

Jena: It really, oh yeah. I would say definitely since this year has been the most change. You know, as silly as it sounds, it’s okay to have it. I think deep down there was this almost anxiety that came when I saw there was money left. It was like oh you better you better buy what you need now because you might not have it when you—It was all like anxiety. It’s crazy what your mind will do. I mean drama. Just silly drama that it will create.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: So I mean honestly, like an anchor thought that I tell myself because as Angela mentioned, I’m still working on this. Is it’s okay to just have it. I don’t need to spend it. I don’t need to do anything with it. It’s just there.

Angela: Yeah, exactly. It’s safe to have money in your account. There’s no need to spend it. It can just be there. It’s like a new relationship. Like when you’re dating and you’re with somebody new. it’s that kind of awkwardness because you’re not comfortable with each other yet. You don’t know quite know each other, but you want to spend time together. That’s kind of the stage you’re in, right. It’s like the money’s there. You guys are together just hanging out, getting to know each other, getting comfortable with each other. Right?

Jena: That’s a good.

Angela: The relationship between you and the money is growing because you’re just—As it sits there and it doesn’t need to be spent, it can just be there for as long as it as it needs to be there. you can go to the other side where you start to hoard money and be stagnant with it. we want to make sure money is always in flow. But knowing it’s okay for it to be there for a while and just grow comfortable with it. You’ll start to actually develop the relationship with money.

then it’s like, of course. Like you’ll just expect it to be there. Like, of course the money. Of course, I have a lot of money. Like that’s just how we do business. That’s just my relationship with money.

Jena: Yes. Yeah.

Angela: It’s pretty fun. How does it feel to have money? I feel like that was not a very well spoken.

Jena: No, no. I know what you mean.  I always know what you mean. Well, I feel safer, and I feel calmer. It just doesn’t feel as complicated. It just…

Angela: Money’s not complicated, right?

Jena: Yeah. to use the analogy before we started recording, it’s like when you’re a kid, at least I was this way. I don’t know. Maybe I’m a scaredy cat. But if I knew I was going to the doctor and I was going to be getting a shot, I worried hardcore about that for a good two weeks beforehand. Worried, panicky, oh my gosh, I’m going to get a shot. then you go to the doctor, you get the shot. It hurts for literally like two seconds, and then it’s over. You’re like that was so not a big deal. Why did I get myself all, you know, upset about that?

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: So that’s kind of how I feel. Like money, to me, was like just such a dread to have to think about it, talk about it, plan it, any of it. I just like eh. It was just like not something I wanted to entertain. When we were coaching, of course, there were some emotions that came up that I had to, you know, feel my way through and process. That was like getting the actual shot. It kind of, you know, stung for a second, but now on the other side, it’s so much nicer.

Angela: Yeah, you’re vaccinated. Right?

Jena: Yeah. Look at that. Like, it just didn’t have to be that hard.

Angela: Yeah. But here’s the thing. Like the anticipation of pain is always more painful than the actual pain itself, right? The anticipation—That we make it last so much longer, first of all. But what’s interesting is that when you believe, like when you’re trying to avoid the feelings that come with looking at your money and the numbers on the screen, which is what all money is basically at this point. It’s all electronic, right? We barely even use real money anymore.

So when we’re looking at the numbers on the screen in the bank account, and we have these emotions that come up, and we want to avoid those emotions, what we do is we’re like that’s icky. That’s hard. I don’t want to think about it. We don’t think about it. We don’t plan for it. We don’t process it. We don’t do anything with it. Basically, we don’t cultivate that relationship with it. We don’t invite it in because we’re so afraid of how we might feel.

the interesting thing about money is the worst thing that could ever happen is how you’re going to feel. Like how you feel if you’re in debt or how you feel when you make a big investment or how you feel when you get a raise or a promotion.

We attach a lot of meaning about ourselves when we think like how great is it going to be when I make more money versus how awful am I if I make less money, right? We judge ourselves, and we make it mean something about us when truly the number on the screen has nothing to do with who we are as a person. It doesn’t mean anything about our human value or our human worth.

Jena: Yeah. I mean it’s kind of just like stepping on the scale to weigh your body weight. It’s like the same kind of drama.

Angela: Yeah. It’s the same. It’s exactly the same. Numbers on the scale and numbers in your bank account, same exact story.

Jena: Yeah.

Angela: But we make it mean we’re a failure. We don’t know how. Like we screwed up. This is permanent, right? Like, I can never fix this. This can’t change. Like it’s too big to change, right? Too much debt, too big on the scale or whatever. Right? We have the story about how we made a mistake. It’s permanent. We’re a failure. Life is over. Like it’s going to be terrible. I don’t want to deal with it because I feel bad about it.

Versus like let’s just drop that and be like okay, now what? Here’s where I’m at. Now what? So I want you to tell the story that happened when you started actively building your relationship with your money.

Jena: Oh, gosh. Well, I would say—

Angela: I just remember the call so distinctly.

Jena: You do?

Angela: Yes. It was just a few weeks ago. Maybe a month or two. I don’t know. It feels like it happened recently, but you called me. You’re like, “I just have to tell you. There’s money in my account.”

Jena: I know. It’s like. And you go, “Your mind did that.” I’m like wow. I don’t know. But yeah, I just. I’m trying to think if there’s any other thoughts that I had. Like I just kept telling myself it’s okay to have it. I just had to be conscious of this, getting away from that it comes in and it goes out sort of mentality. I mean, truthfully, as soon as I really started to do that, it took me a long time. I mean this has been coming up for years with me.

So it took me—We had a coaching session where we talked about debt and like the what we make that mean and like the story around it. You had me basically reframe the story around debt. that, I think, was like the catalyst into like getting over that like shame and all these other like negative emotions that I was feeling just because of what I was thinking about this story of mine.

when I re-shifted that, I think that combined with, you know, just working on having it was like within a couple months, I wasn’t getting like the anxiety like to check the bank account. Like it was like oh my gosh. It’s actually this, I did it.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: It’s work.

Angela: Yeah.  Here’s what’s crazy. When Jena says she’s been working on this a long time, what I want to point out is that she’s had a lifetime of evidence that money is scarce. Money leaves her as soon. As it comes in, it’s already gone. It’s already accounted for. It’s gone. Like she’s already built up decades of evidence that money isn’t available just to have, but it’s really only taken her… I mean, we’ve coached together, what, three years? Has it been three years now?

Jena: Yeah. Three years.

Angela: So three years we’ve been coaching together. we really have only talked about money in the last like four to six months, maybe?

Jena: Well, you.

Angela: I mean, we’ve done it in little spourts.

Jena: It was the beginning of mastermind when you called me remember?

Angela: Oh yes, yes.

Jena: You were just like, “If we do not get to the root of the thoughts you have around money, like we’re not gonna be able to move you through. Like, we got to get down to the business.” Yeah. I remember that.

Angela: So I said I’m gonna coach you on the side. In addition to mastermind, I’m gonna coach you on the side and on money specifically. Are you in? You said yes. So it has been, okay. So fair enough. It’s been close to a year then.

Jena: Yeah.

Angela: So like six to eight months. Okay. But what I want you to see is you have spent. Even if we like over exaggerated and said it’s been one year. One year of coaching on your mindset to create more money in your bank account and to see the value that you have to offer, which is going to create higher demand. So in your next—We’re going to now move on to like the how this impacts the interview process, right. But that one year of working on your money mindset and being willing to like lean into the fears and the scarcity and the doubt, that one year of investing in your mind is already paid off.

Jena: Right. Because I didn’t get a different job. I’m still—Nothing else. Literally nothing else has changed besides my thoughts around money.

Angela: Yeah. Here’s the thing. Yeah. She’s decided it’s safe to have more so she feels more secure. This is her steer cycle, right. This is your steer cycle in play. Your thought—The circumstance hasn’t changed, but your thought about it has. Like it’s safe to have the money. It’s okay to have money, just to have it. I don’t need to spend it. I think as a side thought. You feel secure. You feel safe. Sufficient, I guess would be the e-line.

The A-line, the action, or the approach you take is you don’t mind looking at your bank account, and you actually check it. you actually make a decision like do I need to spend this or not? Do I need to go shopping or not? You make conscious decisions about your money, which probably has you spending less because you realize like am I spending this just to like spend down the money? Or am I spending it because I want it or I need it?

Jena: Yes.

Angela: The result of that is more money in the bank.

Jena: That and also—I mean just to be fair, I bought a new purse. I’ve gone out with girlfriends for dinner. I’ve still done things. So it’s not like, you know, I just now don’t spend any money, and I don’t do anything. It’s not that at all.

Angela: It’s intentional, though.

Jena: Exactly.

Angela: I think I think the decision to spend or not to spend is much more intentional because it’s in your awareness. Right?

Jena: Absolutely. Yes.

Angela: So you’re saying to yourself like it’s okay to have the money, but it’s equally okay to spend it. I’m just going to make a decision. Like do I want to spend my money? If I want a new purse and I have the money and I decide to spend it, that’s equally okay. It’s more about the intention and the like intentionality behind the conscious decision making around spending it or not. seeing the money in the bank and not like going oh, I have money to spend. Then like just going out there and like.

Jena: Go out for dinner.

Angela: Yeah. Just like, oh, we might as well celebrate we have money, and then making sure we don’t have it. It’s almost like your mind was like because you didn’t think it was okay to have it, you made sure not to. Versus now you have it, and then you get to go still do all the fun things.

Jena: Exactly.

Angela: But it’s with intention.

Jena: Yeah. I think the only other thing if you that you’ve coached me a lot on is the scarcity piece to money. because you had asked me what my new thoughts are about it. one of the thoughts I also use is like my anchor thought is no matter what, I will always figure it out.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: Because, again, that also stems from back to childhood and just that overarching anxiety of, you know, if something breaks or something goes wrong, we really don’t have money to fix it. So it creates that kind of scarcity. then that’s the other reason that I was like kind of in like a rush to have more of it, to have more money.

Angela: Yes.

Jena: So just really working on that too that no matter what happens, I always find a way. I’ve always paid my bills. My family has always had what they’ve needed. Like everything always has worked out. So.

Angela: This is the real kicker here. You have to be in complete, well not complete. I would say you have to generally be in sufficiency around the money you have right now. Like whatever your bank account says today, whether it’s $5 or $500 or $5 million, you have to believe that what you have is enough right now. that no matter what comes your way, you’ll figure it out. You have to have that thought with you at every single level.

If you don’t believe that what you have in your bank account today is enough. I know. Some of you out there are arguing with me. You’re like, “But I only have $5 in my bank. It’s literally $5 in my checking account until my next paycheck. I don’t have enough.” But the truth is you do have enough because you’re living, you’re breathing, you’re listening to this podcast. You have a job, you know. You probably have a home.

Like, I’m going to venture to say like there is a lot of abundance in your life that you do have even if you’re spending or overspending or spending your money down to zero. You want to find evidence that your life is sufficient right now because it will not feel more sufficient when you get more money. If you don’t believe it’s enough now, it will never feel like enough no matter how much you have.

I think that feels like the stinger. It feels like the shot, right, the sting. But the truth is that if you can make peace with where you’re at right now whether you’re in debt, whether you are living in a tiny little apartment and you want to be in a house. Whatever your money scarcity is around, finding peace with that now is what’s going to bring in more money basically.

Because your thoughts are what create the money. It’s not the job you have, the position you hold, the status, the title, how long you’ve been working somewhere. It’s none of that. Money is created by value. the more value that you give is based on the thoughts that you have and how valuable those thoughts are. Which Jena has some very valuable thoughts I might add.

Jena: That’s very kind. Thank you, but…

Angela: It’s true. Okay, let’s shift gears and connect this to the interview process because there’s so interrelated, right. Because okay first of all, why do we work?

Jena: Oh, I guess. See the people at home are answering. that’s why I gave them some time.

Angela: Oh yeah. People, why are you working?

Jena: Well, we work for a variety of reasons. We work to contribute. We work to learn something new. We work to obviously make money to provide for our families to name a few.

Angela: Yeah, right. One of the reasons we work is to make money. if you don’t think that’s true then don’t take your paycheck.

Jena: right.

Angela: Right like, come on. Like people want to say like, “Oh, I’m doing it for the kids.” Or, you know, we love our values, and we love the contribution that we have to offer. yes, we love our little ones at school and our staff. We love all of that, but we also want the money.

Jena: Right? That’s where I just think we don’t talk about it. So I think people think it’s like a bad thing to say that, but it’s not. It’s totally okay.

Angela: Right.

Jena: To want to earn money.

Angela: It is how we exchange value in the world. Money is just some made up thing that people created to make an exchange of value easier. Right? Back in the day before we had money, like what did they do exchange like I’ll give you eggs from my chickens, and you give me a goat, right, for milk or something. Like, they used to do it that way. now we’re in a society where we give money in exchange for value.

So you go to school, and you offer value all day long. Like you are supporting students, you’re supporting staff, families. You’re putting your vision into place. There’s a million things you’re out there doing that create value to your district and to the community, and you get paid for that value. then in exchange for that, you now have the money. Then you pay out for the things you value. Be that food, mortgages, cars, coaches, things for your kids. Like that money is all just flowing between us as an exchange of value so that we have the things we want and that we need to live.

So saying that you want to make money or you want to make more money. I just want to dispel the myth that money is even a problem or that money is a bad thing, especially in education. We get really tense around money, right?

Jena: Yeah. It’s like yes.

Angela: Like as educators, we don’t believe we should be working for it when that’s not true. second of all, when we’re a principal we get really freaked out about having enough of it for our school and having enough resources. that we’re always saying it’s not enough. It’s not enough. It’s not enough. Versus saying like, what do we do with what we have? How is it enough? How is it working? How do we have enough? Focusing on what we do have versus what we don’t.

So I mean I’m so passionate about this because I think it could really be a game changer in education. When we see that who we are is we are humans creating value in the world and offering it, and we should get paid for that value. in exchange, we create more value.

So tell me how valuable you are. Because here’s what’s happening with Jena right now. Jena is in the process of interviewing, and she is selling her value. Like part of the interview process is selling value. Like here’s what I have to offer. Pick Me, right?

Jena: Yes. Just like wrapped up in a whole bunch of nerves.

Angela: Yeah. Interviewing is like dating too, right?

Jena: Totally. Speed dating really.

Angela: It is speed dating. You have 30 minutes to sell your value to that district. Like here’s who I am, and here’s why I’m valuable. Here’s why I’m a match for you.

Jena: Yeah. So this is just a little sidebar real quick, but for anyone who’s listening, just like I think a lot of people in education feel sometimes awkward talking about money. I think people also feel equally awkward talking about interviewing.

so I just want to say that it’s all about match and your career path. Just because you’re interviewing doesn’t mean that you necessarily are unhappy or hate the current job that you’re in, you know. I still show up every day to my current position with best intentions, positive attitude, and work hard. So.

Angela: Absolutely.

Jena: I think sometimes people are very hush-hush. I know this because I’ve had teachers this year who have interviewed at other districts and resigned and didn’t tell me until obviously they got the job.

Angela: Right.

Jena: I just think that that’s just proof there that we have this kind of weird, you know, we don’t want to tell anybody that we’re interested in this other position. When that’s a totally normal human thing to maybe see another position or another district that might spark your interest. So I would say like, you know, not only just to go for it, but it’s really okay to talk about it too.

Angela: You know what I want to say is your career path is your life. It is your business. you have to be the one making those decisions about what it is you want. you have to love those reasons. So if you’re a teacher who’s aspiring to become a principal, it’s okay to be in that truth of who you are and who you want to become and to fully own that.

I get it. There’s a lot of politics that go on behind the scenes when people think you’re leaving, and they wonder why you’re leaving. they’re questioning the reason for leaving. Like there is all of that little chatter and drama that goes on. I get that. I want you to stand in your own truth anyway. Be in that space of like owning who you are and who you want to become regardless of other people’s opinions, which I get feels easier said than done.

But the truth of it is I really encourage people to consider the cost of not being honest with yourself about what it is you want. there’s nothing wrong. You can love being a teacher and want to become an administrator. You can love the current position you’re in and want to strive for a new experience or a different school setting or a different position for many reasons. Like there’s no shame in being in a position and desiring a different experience.

Like obviously if you have a lot of shame around like saying the truth of what it is you want, there’s coaching available for that like to clear that up. But I appreciate you saying that Jena. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I can see how there is a lot of shame or like hiding going on when it comes to going for what we desire. Yeah. Yeah. Good for you.

Jena: So what would you like me to share about my interview experience and story.? Oh, sorry.

Angela: You know what? I really think like I mean you can summarize what you want. One, I want to talk about the one that you did the video for. Just this—

Jena: No.

Angela: Attachment.

Jena: The heartbreak she means. Wait ‘til hear this story people.

Angela: Yeah, the heartbreak.

Jena: Ah, the horrible heartbreak

Angela: And how we got detected from that. Then the new approach you’re taking because of the mindset shift around money, right.

Jena: Okay. Yes. Got it. So, I saw the job, and it really piqued my interest. So I decided to go for it. it was three rounds of, I felt, very intense questions and lots of just people looking at you. It was nerve racking. so I’m trying to be true to me. Show my value. for the last round, final round, we needed to make a video of if we would be the candidate, how would we introduce ourselves to our students. So I just took it and ran with it. I just evolved my family and just.

Angela: It was the best video ever.

Jena: Oh, you’re very kind. I was proud of it.

Angela: It was so good. Even Dustin said his kids watched it and loved it. Like you put your heart and soul into it. by the way, she was sharing with us in the mastermind that she was—No technology experience. Like you were like stressed out about the tech piece of it, and it took a long time. But you were so all in on this interview process that you just went for it.

Jena: Yeah, I really did. I am really proud of how I showed up for that, what I created. So, you know, left that final interview just feeling like I put it all out there. Like I had no regrets. I was feeling pretty confident because it felt like, you know, they seemed to like me. Then I didn’t get the job. it was kind of like an internal candidate situation. I mean, the superintendent even called me, which I mean that is like super kind. It is what it is, but that was like a breakup. Like I just felt like so sad.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: then I started creating this thought that wasn’t serving me, which is well now like why bother interviewing because people are just going to pick the internal candidate.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: Then, you know, looked for evidence to kind of back that up. So, you know, again another kind of fixed mindset there that I had to really work on. what I’m working on just believing is that the job—Obviously, I have a job now, and everything is okay. another opportunity at some point is coming. Like I have to just believe that it is coming.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: I can’t rush it like I want to.

Angela: Yes, yeah. Because you’re sufficient in this job now. You have learned how to be happy in this job that you have now, which tells you you can be happy anywhere. You don’t need to rush. The reason we get into a hurry to like make more money or get into a new position is because we think we’re going to be happier there than we are here. But when we know how to create happiness here and we also know life’s 50/50. Like there’s going to be hard things about having more money or having a new job. When we know that there’s balance no matter what, we don’t need to rush to get there.

Jena: Yes, right. Yeah. You know, I just had to kind of feel the emotions of the result of that interview. I also had to just come to grips with if I want another experience, this is what I have to be willing to do.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: Until the right one comes along.

Angela: Yeah. So you had to be willing to go through the disappointment and process that disappointment and feel the burn.

Jena: Yeah, because it does burn. Then it’s like almost a little bit of like embarrassment was coming up because then I had to tell my family because my family saw the video. So they knew, obviously, that this was happening. then I was like well actually, I didn’t get it. then well, everyone was super nice and supportive. You put a lot of pressure on yourself sometimes. Just for me it felt like ugh, I don’t know. Like that rejection is a real tough one to process through. But you have to be willing to do that in order to, you know.

Angela: I always ask people this. What are you willing to feel? What emotion are you willing to feel in order to get the result you want? Is there any emotion you’re avoiding that’s preventing you from having it, right? For interviewing, rejection is the number one emotion. Disappointment and rejection. That combo of like I really wanted that job and I didn’t get it. Or they rejected me.

Like you either feel rejected as a person and you make that mean something about you or something about them. Or you’re just like, that’s such a bummer. Like that would have been a great fit. you process that.

the key is you have to let yourself feel that pain. Because if you don’t, if you stuff it down or if you avoid it or if you’re like, “Oh, well. No big deal. Moving on to the next thing.” You’re going to take that little baggage of disappointment and resentment and frustration and rejection with you to the next interview. you’re already going to be thinking like probably going to reject me. Don’t attach. You’re going to be disappointed. that energy is not going to get you a job.

Jena: 100%. It’s so true.

Angela: So like she really did take the time to just feel that. It took a couple of weeks, I would say. Like you kind of felt it for a while.

Jena: Yes. I had been in other interviews that didn’t work out, but that one in particular that I shared, you’re right. It took me a little while.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: Then I was like being a little victimy. So I’m like oh the internal—I don’t know. I was just like whatever. I was not really feeling. I wanted to make other excuses instead of just feeling the negative emotions.

Angela: Yeah, the truth of it, which is I didn’t get selected.

Jena: Right, which means I wasn’t the best one. Which doesn’t feel good to say but that’s true.

Angela: Well, that’s even an opinion. I would say like it wasn’t the right match.

Jena: Yeah.

Angela: It wasn’t me, and it wasn’t them. Just it wasn’t the right match. it was meant—Here’s the crazy thing. It was meant to be because that means the right job is out there waiting for you. It’s just like dating. When somebody breaks up with you, and you thought they were the one and you go through the heartache. What you realize down the road is that you actually meet the right person.

then you’re like, “Oh, thank you universe for sparing me because now I’m with the person I was meant to be. Even though I thought at the time, I couldn’t see it.” But what we know, especially if you’ve dated and been through all multiple relationships, you’ll know like when you know the pattern, it’s like you can learn from that attachment. Like what did I learn from this experience? I’m gonna say you had a darn good time making that video anyway. Like you had fun. You learned a lot. You learned about yourself. You actually grew in what you thought you were capable. Like that interview process really pushed you to be the best version of you as a candidate.

Jena: Yeah.

Angela: now you know how like you can bring it to the to an interview.

Jena: Yeah. Yeah, that’s totally true. it’s funny because your brain won’t want to focus on those like types of thinking. It’ll want to go the negative route if you’re not aware.

Angela: Yeah. So go the negative route and give yourself time to process that sadness and disappointment. then you ask yourself what else is true? What did I learn? Why was this a good thing for me? What am I going to take with me to the next interview?

Jena: Right.

Angela: Yeah. Okay. So that happened.

Jena: Yes.

Angela: then you finally decided to get back in the ring.

Jena: Yeah, I took a little hiatus to feel all the feels.

Angela: Yes.

Jena: So now something that I realize is I was probably in an effort to, of course, not probably. Of course in an effort to try to avoid the not getting a job again. I was over analyzing jobs and being the right like match for me. Instead of, you know, really kind of applying to a variety of places and really through the process of interviewing decide then instead of deciding ahead of time.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: Then that also will help with this attachment. Because if you’re only applying to one job, obviously that’s all you’re gonna think about. But if you’re applying to seven, then if one of those seven doesn’t work out, it’s a lot easier to move on.

Angela: Yes. Yeah. The other thing is you were trying to avoid getting rejected again by trying to predetermine which is the best position for you.

Jena: Oh, 100%. Of course. Oh yeah.

Angela: Versus I’m throwing my name in all of it. I’m going to just try for everything and the right one will come. Like believing like I’m going to try for everything and the right one will come, and every no is one step closer to a yes.

Jena: Right.

Angela: You want to start with no’s.

Jena: That it is not my default. Like what you just said there makes total sense, and that’s what I’m doing. But my own brain would not have wanted to do that.

Angela: Nobody does. Nobody wants to do that. Nobody wants to get the no’s. But if you believe like every no I get is one step closer to the yes and one step closer to the ideal job. Like that no just saved me from the wrong job. Whew, right? When you think that, you’re much more likely to keep going. You’re like I’m one step closer to the yes.

I get it. There’s times where you get discouraged. You’re like how many no’s does it take? That’s what we have to ask ourselves am I willing to feel this over and over again until I get the result? Am I that committed to the ideal job? Like I’m willing to feel disappointment over and over and over again.

It’s kind of like having children. Like we love them so much we’re willing to feel any emotion with them. We’ll process. We’ll support them. We’ll love them through anything. Even in the hardest of times we’re all in. we just want to have that same commitment to ourselves. I’m all in on my career. I’m all in on my life. I’m all in believing that no matter how many times I get knocked down, I get up one more time. Yeah. So you’re still in the process?

Jena: I am. I am. But the job is coming. So I’m not worried about it.

Angela: You are definitely less worried. I think the last session—Whatever session we had where we talked about like just applying to all the jobs and trying to stop filtering them ahead of time. I feel like that opened the door for you to be like okay, like.

Jena: Yeah. I don’t know. I guess—Your brain is such a funny thing. That never occurred to me. Like it never. Maybe people out there listening, you have and you’re like, that’s really silly. But for whatever reason, I was like a one district person at a time. Like I would only ever apply to one place at a time. See how that panned out. If it was a no, okay. Then we move on to the next one. It was never like putting several applications out at one time. I don’t know. I just never I never did it.

Angela: Yeah. Well, I mean you can use that approach. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I feel like putting yourself out there to all the places, you’re just going to find the match fast.

Jena: Yeah.

Angela: So it’s a decision on how you want to approach the process. Slower or faster.

Jena: If what I’m saying is resonating with you and you tend to kind of latch on very quickly to a job and like, really, really want it and then are super disappointed if you don’t get it. Or if you are maybe finding yourself over analyzing and pre-determining if it’s the right job for you or not. If either of those things are you, maybe give this strategy a try.

Angela: Yeah. Yeah because there’s other people who go out there, and they try for jobs that they’re way either overqualified for, underqualified for. Like they’re trying to be superintendent, right, coming out of the classroom. They’re just willing to like be told no. Be told like you’re not good enough. You’re not close. they’re like okay, but they just keep trying, right?

You don’t want to be delusional, but you want to be like open to receiving the job that’s meant for you because you want to meet it halfway. There’s you. if you’re hustling and chasing and running and trying to do all of the work, the job’s not coming to you. It’s almost like you’re almost detracting it from you. But if you just believe like I’m going to show up. I’m going to be the best version of myself that I can be. I’m going to trust that the job’s gonna meet me halfway. The right job does come up. It’s inevitable. It works 100% of the time. 100% of the time.

So before we wrap up. I know we’re close to the end of the hour here, but I want to talk about one last thing around money. that is investing in yourself to create more value so that you can create more demand so that you can demand the level of income that you want to make in your life. I know we’ve talked about this. Like you had dollar amount that you were aiming to be offered.

Jena: Oh, yes.

Angela: Remember? We talked about that. in order to make that level of money, you have to offer that level of value. I always like to tell myself like if I want to make $100,000, I’ve got to offer 200k worth of value. Right? I’ve got to offer double what I want to make just to over deliver, right.

But I want to talk about how sometimes, well, I think always, but why you have to first invest money in yourself in order to create more value. So tell us a little bit about your thoughts on investing in coaching, investing in your development, your personal and professional development. Tell us a little bit about that, and how that has created more value for you in order to have more value to offer?

Jena: Well, I mean, just with our time together, the skills that you’ve taught me and that I have, I do have more value because I can manage my thoughts. I can manage my mind. I mean it’s not just at work. It’s just within my—I mean, Angela has coached me plenty of times on personal things as well so. Case in point, money. There we go. So overall, it has just added to my life and made me a better, happier human.

So I mean to me, what better gift can I give myself? I mean, we have people out there that join gyms and have subscription to gyms. People that go and get maybe their nails done or their hair done. There’s all these things that we do for ourselves to better ourselves, but this, to me, has been the most rewarding.

Angela: What value do you believe that coaching has created in your life? Like professionally or personally. I’m just curious. I don’t think I’ve ever asked you that question.

Jena: Well, I mean, a lot. I would say some relationships of mine are better. My bank account. I literally have more money just because I’ve done coaching. Even in my job I was able to navigate through first year principal, and then we had a global pandemic. I mean, that’s crazy, and undoubtedly stressful for everybody, but I still loved my job. People think I’m nuts for saying that, but I do. I do like being a principal. I like being a leader. Gosh, it’s almost I can’t really put like a price on it, Angela, because it’s just pretty much in every way my life’s better. You’re basically stuck with me for life, Angela. I’m never not gonna be coached.

Angela: I want you to be stuck with me for life.

Jena: I mean you’re just never getting rid of me. I will never not have a coach.

Angela: Why? What is that thought? Why do you have that thought?

Jena: Because I can—Gosh, I don’t want to sound cheesy, but I can like literally do anything I really want to do.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: All because of our thoughts. That our brain will be crazy and scare us out of it, and through coaching, you can get me the results ultimately that I want.

Angela: Yeah.

Jena: Because I wanted to be a principal, a successful principal, and I am. you know I wanted to look for some other opportunities for other jobs, and I am. I wanted to have more money, and I do. So I’ve been able to accomplish the things I want to from working with you.

Angela: Right. Because here’s the truth. If there’s one thing I could sell people on on themselves is that the scarcity thoughts are never going away. You’re not going to wake up one day and they’re gone, ever, ever. You’re going to have days where using poorly of yourself. Your self-concept is in the toilet. You’re going to have days where you’re completely discouraged. You’re going to have days where you’re complete and panic and fear, whether it’s about money or it’s about your job or it’s about a relationship. None of that’s ever going away.

But what coaching does is it lets you hold space for that scarcity and those hard days and those days when you’re mean to yourself or you made a mistake or you’re wallowing in panic or any really intense emotion. Rejection or whatever it is. Coaching allows you to hold space for that part of your brain and also take responsibility in a good way. Like have ownership and control over.

Almost like the scarcity part of your brain is like a toddler throwing a tantrum. then you have the adult version of your brain saying, “Okay, like I’m going to hold space for you.” It’s like when a child has a tantrum where you can let them, and they throw this big fit. You’re like I’m just gonna wait this out. I still love you. You’re just tired. You’re just hungry. You just want another cookie. That’s okay. I’m not going to give it to you no matter how much you tantrum. It’s okay. I’ve got you.

You can do that with your own brain. I feel like that’s the magic of coaching is that it allows you to hold space for the part of your brain that’s scared and afraid and worried and panicked or angry or all of the what you would label negative emotions. Just let it be there. then make a decision with intention anyway to create the result you want.

I know you’re scared brain, but we’re going for this interview. I know you’re afraid brain, but we don’t have to spend the money down. I know you’re afraid to be a new leader, but we’re gonna go be new and make mistakes anyway. We’re just gonna go. We’re gonna go do the things. Because coaching gives you the tools to be like, I know how to handle all the crazy emotion.

one thing I love to tell people is like emotion is like a rubber band. The capacity to which you are willing to experience negative vibration in your body is the capacity to which you can grow the love, abundance, joy, success. Like, it gets bigger. So if you’re playing at a negative one, plus one, you’re not going to be able to get to a negative 10, plus 10. Right? So good. It’s so good.

Jena: It’s like, yeah.

Angela: Jena and I like to geek out on coaching.

Jena: We really, it just. Yeah. I’m a super fan for sure. I can’t say enough good things about it. it’s honestly probably the—Well not probably. It is the best money I’ve spent.

Angela: Well, it lasts a lifetime. Because look if you can make money with your brain, if you know how to make income with your brain and you know how to create demand and create value with your brain, then people could take your money away and you could go back out and recreate it all over again. Because you know how to do it. Right? Like if someone took your time away, you would find a different way to spend your time. If you couldn’t spend your time doing this, you’d find another way to spend your time doing that. Right? It’s so powerful. It’s so powerful.

I wish that every principal could have a coach. That’s my dream. My vision is that every principal, this becomes mainstream and every single one of you listening can have a coach. So if you’re wanting coaching and you’re worried about either the time it takes or the money it costs—Because I’m going to tell you, you have to invest your time, and you have to invest your money.

Like I have a lot of value to offer. It’s not free. It’s expensive because it’s worth it. Because you get a 10x return on that investment. You pay me money, I give you value. then you take that value and you go create that times 10. Because think about it, Jena got a $10,000 raise her first year as a school leader. That $10,000 raise is now $30,000 worth of value because she’s worked there for three years.

not to mention that like now that she’s making $10,000 more than she was in the beginning, she now can demand more money when she goes out to get her next opportunity because that’s now the baseline. So that is how we generate more abundance in our life. It’s pretty fun.

Yeah, the listeners can’t see us now, but we’re looking at each other with like—We’re in love, and we’re glowing. We’re just giddy with happiness because she has created—I mean could cry telling you this. How much she has created in her life. It’s really incredible over the last three years. You’re amazing Jena.

Jena: Oh, well, thank you.

Angela: I want you to take credit for this. Like I can offer the coaching, but you have to be willing to receive it. It’s kind of like money, right? The universe is willing to offer us money, but we have to be willing to receive it. when we say yes, it’s just feel so much easier.

Jena: Yeah.

Angela: So good. Oh my god.

Jena: Yes.

Angela: Yay. Okay, any final words of wisdom from you before we sign off?

Jena: Oh. Oh. Okay, we’re gonna get off and I’m going to say oh you should have said that. You should have…I guess I, no. I just will say you know, principals, thanks for all you do. You don’t hear it often enough. If you are in any way suffering, our jobs are just really hard. I can promise you I’m not just making it up or fibbing. You can be happy in the job, even with all of the things that come your way.

for me, the way that I was able to get there was through coaching. So I would just say reach out to Angela and just see if it’s something for you. I can tell you I’m just an average person. I don’t want to—I’m an average person. I’m nobody that’s different from anybody listening. I found coaching, and I did the work. I listened to Angela, and I really tried. I just am so incredibly thankful I have it in my life so.

Angela: Yeah, I mean I am open. I will coach as many people as that can come my way. here’s the thing. If you truly, honestly, if the mathematics of your wallet can’t afford—I know can’t afford is just an opinion. But if the math of your bank account doesn’t qualify you to have a coach at this moment in time, I want you to consider the resourcefulness that you have within your brain.

Where can you find the money? Maybe your district can pay, or maybe they can pay a portion of it. Maybe family can help you out. Maybe you can. If you think about it, there’s so many resources available to you. Or if none of those are options for you. If you’ve tried all the things and it’s not available to you in this moment, I want you to believe this is temporary. It doesn’t mean it’s forever. You can have a coach. You can afford a coach. I want you to look for all the ways in which that’s true.

I’ll tell you this. I tell you everything on this podcast. So if you’re not able to afford a coach right now in this moment, I want you to like binge on this podcast. Especially the money mindset stuff. I will put them in the show notes what specific…I know I did a month on money mindset sometime last year or in 2020. I can’t remember. I’ll look that up for you, put it in the show notes. But I want you to binge on that because when you start to shift your thinking around money, the money shows up. If you decide I want money for coaching, it will show up. Right, Jena? It does.

Jena: Completely. Yes.

Angela: Jena has paid money. She’s paid for coaching herself. She invested in herself, and her district has invested in her. So you have to believe that the money is available to you for having a coach and just be open to whatever way that money is going to flow to you. I really want to end with that because you are worthy of having a coach.

You deserve to have somebody in your corner who’s going to help you all the way through. To be your advocate for your dreams and your vision and your career and what you want and how you want to live and to create work life balance. That’s what this is all about. Like I am in service to your dream and your vision. I just help your brain find the path that gets you there. this is just the beginning. Right, Jena?

Jena: Yes, for sure.

Angela: Jena’s gonna become a coach on day, isn’t she?

Jena: I need to have a talk to you about that, some thoughts I’ve been having about that.

Angela: I told her like I’m gonna hire her as a coach, and she’s going to work with me. we’re going to coach the principal’s faces off.

Jena: Yes.

Angela: We’re going to help you guys. We’re here. So we love you all so much. Just know you’re in this party with us. By being on the podcast, you are in this party. You’re welcome to join us at any time in any way. join the Facebook group. Listen to the podcast, send me messages on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, wherever you show up in the world on social media. You can email me directly with questions. Like there’s so many ways to be a part of this coaching mindset and community. we are here for you. All of you, 100%. Right, Jena?

Jena: Yes. Go principals make the money.

Angela: Yay.

Jena: Crush the interviews. You got it.

Angela: Yes. Crush your interviews, make the money. Like take care of those teachers and those kids. Just go be amazing and empowered. That’s what this is all about. So Jena, I love you. You know this.

Jena: I love you too.

Angela: Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast.

Jena: Thank you for inviting me. It was really fun as usual.

Angela: Oh, we’ll be back. I’m sure.

Jena: Okay, sounds good.

Angela: All right. Guys, take care. Bye.

Jena: Bye.

If this podcast resonates with you, you have to sign up for the Empowered Principal coaching program. It’s my exclusive one to one coaching and mentorship program for school leaders who believe in possibility. This program is designed for principals who are hungry for the fastest transformation in the industry. If you want to create the best connections, impact, and legacy for yourself and your school, the Empowered Principal program was designed for you. Join me at angelakellycoaching.com/work-dash-with-me to learn more. I’d love to support you in becoming an empowered school leader.

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