Ep #78: Education and Neuroscience with Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath

Hello, Empowered Principals, welcome to episode 78.

Welcome to The Empowered Principal Podcast, a not so typical, educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy, by refining your most powerful tool: your mind. Here’s your host, certified life coach, Angela Kelly Robeck.

Well hello there, my friends. How are you doing today? Happy Tuesday. Do I have a special treat for you guys? I’ve connected with Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath, who currently lives in Melbourne, Australia. How cool is that? He is a neuroscientist and educator with experience in human learning, memory, and brain stimulation. Sounds very serious, doesn’t it?

He has conducted research and lectured at Harvard University, Harvard Medical School, and the University of Melbourne. And, in addition, this guy has worked at over 50 international schools and his work’s been featured all over in social media platforms. So he knows his stuff. He’s an amazing researcher. And, by the way, he does have a TEDxTalk on YouTube and he’s recently released his latest book. And the title of that book is Stop Talking, Start Influencing: 12 Insights from Brain Science to Make Your Message Stick.

And that is how he and I connected, over our books, because we have a similar mission. And our missions of improving the quality of education through the understanding of how our brain learns and that thoughts impact our results led us together and led us to this discussion about how the brain works and processes information and why our adult brains find change to be so difficult. And finally, we wrap up with some advice for school leaders who are wondering how to best support their staff with implementing new concepts; so how our staff learns. How the adult brain works, and how we can process learning into implementation.

I have to say, I fully enjoyed getting to know Dr. Horvath.  I look forward to sharing this interview with you guys and I’m really excited to share this and have you learn from him. So, please do enjoy.

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Angela: Hello, my Empowered Principals. Welcome to a very special episode. Today is a bonus episode and I have somebody very special in the house. We’ve got Jared Cooney Horvath here. He is a fellow educator and researcher. We connected online and became really committed to one another’s work and we decided to do a podcast together to talk about teaching, learning, and brain development.

As you know, that’s one of my passions. I love talking about how our brain works, how we learn, how we implement change in our life as school leaders, and Jared’s work backs up this idea of the thought that we can change the way we think to change the results that we get in our personal life and professional life. Y’all know that, and he is here to share his work with you and I just can’t wait to dive in. So, without further ado, let’s hear- it from Jared. Jared, welcome.

Jared: Thank you so much for having me on. I’m really happy to be here with you. This is too much fun for me, so thanks for having me on.

Angela: Awesome, we are so happy to have you. This is so fun. I love doing interviews. This is my second interview and I just think that it gives our listeners so much juicy information and gives them so much to think about. So thanks for spending time with us today. And I would love to just start by having you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you decided to pursue this work.

Jared: Yeah, so I was originally a teacher. So this is about 12 years ago, well, 15 years ago I probably started. So that’s my true passion, being a teacher, classrooms, working with students. But back when I was teaching, that’s when the neuroscience, the brain stuff, really started to pick up speed. And I just remember a lot of people trying to give us brain-based stuff, brain-based products, brain-based teaching. But no one could tell you what it actually meant.

Like, it was a cool thing with no depth. So I decided that I was going to back to school to try to solve that stuff myself. So what we meant to be a short little jaunt back into academia then back to the classroom has now become 12 years of this stuff. But all I do now is I study the brain, I study psychology economics, behavioral econ, anything I can study that has to do with the science of learning; how do people think? How do people learn?

And the only reason I’ve been doing this is so I can get back to school to educators, to teacher, to leaders and say here’s what it all means, you know. Here’s the good stuff, here’s the fluff. Here’s the stuff we can use, here’s the stuff that doesn’t really mean anything.

So what I do now primarily is I work with teachers, and this is my passion, saying cool, let me help you weed through this stuff so we can make sense of it and actually start to apply it to our practice. So this is my passion here now too.

Angela: I love it, and giving teachers exactly what they need and do not need is so beneficial because they do not have the time. They don’t have the time to weed through all of the information. And believe me, in this day and age, information is constantly thrown at them, they’re constantly having to sort out, like, what is effective, what’s not, and how do I implement it. So having somebody out there who’s doing the work for them is amazing.

Jared: Bingo, that’s where I kind of call myself a translator now, where I’m lucky enough, I get to sit in that middle road between science and practice, between the laboratory and the classroom. And I’m kind of that guy who gets to go, cool, scrap it, do it, this means this, get rid of this. So ideally, if I can make everyone else’s life easier by just saying here’s the juice, here are the nuggets we need, then I’m doing my job, I’m happy as a clam.

Angela: Awesome, how much fun, oh so good, so good. Okay, so let’s get down to it. So tell me, what do you believe are the top three things that teachers and school leaders need to know about learning and information retention? Where do you take them down that path?

Jared: Oh my goodness, the top three, that’s such a tricky thing to weed them down, but I think I’ve got them here. So I’m having a thought. So step one – and this is what I teach all students, all teachers, everyone, I try and come out – and it’s going to sound fluffy but bear with me. Step one is get your mind right. I think we all have these concepts of mindset, of resilience, of all this understanding. But we now know very deeply that the story you tell yourself about your abilities or about what you can and can’t do, those stories will literally dictate how your brain, how your biology responds to the learning you’re about to undertake.

So, take a kid and they have the story that they’re never going to be good at math. Cool, now sit them down for five hours to study math and we can watch that information essentially go in and bounce right back out. It’s almost as if the system rejects it. But take that same kid and have them say, okay I can actually get better at math, have them study for five hours, and now the information finds a home.

It starts to get stuck. The system starts to change to adapt to it. And nothing changed in their study, in their practice, and their learning, other than what story did they start with. So as fluffy as it may sound, we always say, get your mind right. Start with the story because that’s going to dictate the impact of everything else.

And I think where a lot of people take that off the rails, Miss Dweck seemed to push it a little too far, was they think that getting your story right is the end; like once you have a good story, cool, you’re going to learn everything. No, no you still have to do the work. You could have the greatest mindset, the greatest story in the world, but if you sit in your room and do nothing for the next 10 years, nothing’s going to happen.

So it’s about recognizing that that mindset is your appetizer and then we go into the main meal. And get that appetizer right and the main meal becomes incredible. So I always say, step one in anything, get your mind right, get your story right. Which then, I guess, brings us into big point number two. So once you have your mind right, we now say, cool I can learn, what am I going to learn?

All human beings move along what’s called a learning trajectory. So, love it or hate it – and it doesn’t matter how old you are or how young you are, this is across the board – we all start with surface-based learning. We move through deep learning and then, kind of, play with this idea of transfer. And unfortunately, if you try and circumvent that process, learning suffers incredibly.

Essentially, if you want to learn anything, you can’t skip any of those steps. You’ve got to go surface, in through deep, into transfer. So just to help clarify this for your listeners, surface learning is essentially facts. You need to know facts. You need to have embodied facts, turn them into semantic memories within your brain.

If you don’t take time to learn the facts, you can never go deep with any learning. So we always say, facts precede skills. And too often, people try and brush – they do a half-day PL where they hear some new facts, and then they try and go implement it. And that’s just not enough. You need to really embody the facts if you ever want to have them make an impact on your life.

So once you go through shallow, then you start to go into deep learning. That’s where you form concepts around those facts and start to implement and test your new concepts in your context, wherever it is you’re working. So we go from facts into concepts into application and then throughout, we do this think, transfer, where we see, okay, can I apply the same concept over in math class?  Can I apply the same concept in English? Can I apply it at home? Can I apply it in the car?

And that transfer process, taking the skill and moving it around, it’s got its own things we’ve got to worry about. It’s never easy. It’s always difficult. But I think – so if we say that one is get your mind right, two is recognize that there is a very clear process we have to go through if we want anyone to embody something and change. And that process starts with facts, love it or hate it, then moves into conceptualization, how are you organizing those facts before we can go into implementation, how are you going to change yourself to adapt for and apply these facts? Try and jump to the end too fast and nothing will change. People will just go right back to the status quo and you will have wasted all your time trying to learn anything.

So, if we’ve got get your mind right, learning trajectory is two, number three, I would say – and this is a little more practical, just hardcore – I would say recall is everything. So, when it comes to making deep lasting memories, stuff that really sticks with people. We’ve been trying forever to figure out, what makes a memory deep? What essential ingredient does it have to have?

And we thought a moment has to be emotional if you want to remember it. But that can’t be true, otherwise why do we remember radio jingles so well? Those things aren’t emotional but we can all sing them. I can sing radio jingles from when I was six.  So then we thought it’s pure repetition, but then you’ve got to say it can’t be repetition because studied a lot in college, like the periodic table. I’ve repeated that for five different tests, passed the tests, I still couldn’t tell you anything about it; repeated, repeated, repeated, no deep memory.

So, what’s the big secret? We’ve learned that the secret to a deep memory isn’t about how the information goes in. It’s about how the information comes back out. Every time you access a memory, recall it, pull that information out of your brain, that’s when that memory gets deeper, bigger, stronger.

So go back to something like Game of Thrones, which we were talking about earlier before we started recording, I’ve watched Game of Thrones once, but I could tell you everything about it because I constantly think about it, I’m constantly debating about it. I’m talking to my wife about it. I’m looking up fan theories. I’m pulling that information out so often that the memory for it is so deep.

So when it comes to learning – and it’s kids and adults across the board – when it comes to some new program, some new learning, some new change management, we have to worry about that trajectory, but then we also have to think about how are we getting them to pull that information out. So it’s not about how many more times can I teach it to you, how many more times can I present it to you?  It’s about how am I getting you to think about, play with this information, as we move through the trajectory? Because that’s what’s leading to the deep memories that are actually going to allow us to change in the long run. So we’ve got one, get your story right, two, learning trajectory, there is a process, and three, recall is key.

Angela: That’s awesome. You know, and it’s so funny how much it aligns with what I teach my students and my listeners is that our thoughts is the story. So the thoughts that we have, or the series of thoughts that we have is a story, and the story that we choose to believe will impact the way that we feel and our emotional state. That emotional state is what determines how we’re going to approach our learning. And so I love when you were talking about Game of Thrones, how you said you’re so emotionally invested in the storyline that compels you into this action of talking about it and thinking about it and taking action to research it and look up all the theories. And that emotional investment in the storyline or what you’re choosing to believe creates those emotions, kicks you into action, and that gets you the result of that deeper learning.

Jared: And if you want to get scientific with it, essentially, what an emotion is, is it’s just chemicals flowing through your body. So you can assume a racing heart, damp skin, crankily stomach, these physical sensations are emotions and they’re predicated on chemicals. Now, those chemicals will dictate how your body responds to everything beyond it, what it chooses to do, how it chooses to react.

So when I go back to exactly what you were saying, the story drives these chemicals, those chemicals will then dictate what you can and cannot do. So once you enter a learning situation or watch a show or go into a meeting or have a debate, those chemicals are the things that are dictating. Cool, we’re going to allow this information to stick or we’re going to bounce it right back out. Or, we’re going to bring it in and change it and adapt it. So you’re absolutely right, those emotions, those feelings are the driver that really allows for everything else to happen. So start there, get that right, everything else is gravy.

Angela: Exactly, so when we understand that process and we conceptually understand how the brain works, how the body responds to our thoughts, that chemical response, that physical vibration in the body that is emotion, we ask the question, like, why is learning a challenge and why do teachers specifically – I’m thinking as a school leader – in the context of helping our teachers learn new concepts or try new approaches, what makes it so challenging in terms of they know conceptually how to do it, but why does it feel so hard?

Jared: So, a big secret of education and a big secret of learning that everyone rarely mentions, it’s not easy and it feels weird. If we were live and you were with me, I could put you through a series of things that kicks you into what we call your coder mode. So in order to learn anything, you have to enter your coder.

Essentially, your brain has to flip into a different state. Traditionally, your brain is what we call in predictor mode, and this is just how it makes it through the day so it doesn’t have to work too hard. So right now, all your listeners are in prediction mode. They’re just guessing the words that are going to come out of my mouth. And so long as these words are even close to what they think they should be, they just experience the prediction, no harm, no foul.

If you want to learn something new, you have to shut the predictor down, zip into the present, and access your coder. That feels – the sensation of the coder – feels very weird. It feels uncomfortable. Most people describe it as they feel confused, they feel conflicted, they feel uncertain. And for that reason, most people try to avoid that coder mode as much as is humanly possible. Whenever it kicks on, they try to shut it down and go back to old prediction, just because it feels safer.  It feels more calm in a prediction.

So I think one of the big reasons why change management, why growth and learning, especially amongst adults, is hard, and kids, is because it doesn’t feel great. But, the good news is, you can learn to love that feeling. People who become really good learners actually learn to seek out that crunch because they love it. They almost become addicted to that crunch because that’s the sign that the system is changing, it’s trying to update itself.

So I guess the first reason why things get tough is people naturally try to shut off from it. Now, the bad news is the older you get, the deeper your predictions get. So it’s sometimes easier to kick through a kid’s predictions than it is to kick through an adult’s because once you’ve been alive for 40, 50, 60 years, you’ve got a pretty good sense of how the world works. And now, if I want to teach you anything or change anything, I’ve got to break through that 60 year prediction, which means every time I get you into coder mode and try and teach you something new, your natural inclination, your entire system is going to be to try and tweak that information that just gave you to fit your current prediction.

So don’t change the prediction to meet the new information, change the new information to meet my old prediction, and then just go back to normal. So even if I told you ABC, your brain can change that into XYZ if that’s what your old prediction thinks it should be. And then we can have a debate later where you’ll swear I taught you this and I’ll say no I taught you this. It’s because you changed it to fit your really heavy prediction.

So the next thing for adults is not only do we have to break through that kind of get them into crunch mode, but it takes a lot more time for big changes than it does for students. Students who might be coming in from scratch without a prediction, cool, we can build a new prediction, fine. Adults with a really heavy prediction, we’ve got to continually chip away at that.

And so go back to that idea of the learning trajectory, from surface into deep; we can’t even jump into deep until we spend typically days if not weeks at surface with new information with adults. And if you think about it, most change management, most changes we try to make in school, they’re one-day PLs. They’re one half-hour meeting once a week, and that’s simply not enough time to break through people’s predictions.

You want to make a real change, you’ve got to devote the time and effort to it and be ready to slog your way through it. It’s going to take a year. It’s not going to take a night, it’s going to take a year. And anytime adults do start to change their predictions, you’ll notice what we call spontaneous reaffirmation of old predictions. When they stop paying attention, their old predictions will just kind of pop back in. So it’s not even that once we get there, we’re done.  We have to keep slogging. Even when we’re there, we have to keep drilling it, keep practicing it, keep living it until it becomes our new prediction.

So, something that should take six months to learn might take three years to fully implement and see on the ground, and that’s just natural fact of when you’re dealing with adults, you’ve got to get through their 60 years of conditioning and learning.

Angela: Yeah, our brains like to go on that autopilot, right, it’s basically the difference between – autopilot feels so good. It’s that certainty, it’s safety, it’s comfort zone, it’s knowing what to expect, knowing the answer, being the A-plus student. And that discomfort comes in when you have that cognitive dissonance of, like, wait a minute, I thought this to be true, or I believed that this was the best way, or this was the best approach, or this is how kids learn. And when you’re having to question your current belief systems and create some dissonance there, that is uncomfortable for sure.

Jared: And I think that it’s one of the things we’ve got to do though. If you can break somebody’s prediction, then they become personally vested in it. So it’s easy enough to stand up and tell a group of people, here’s a great way to do things. But after 40 years of teaching, I’ve been told that so many times that it’s probably just going to come in one year and out of the other. But if instead I fail, if you can show me somehow how my current understanding is completely wrong and something I’m doing is wrong, now I’m in.

You kick off my coder and I have personal reason to want to be there and change. Again, it doesn’t guarantee I will, but at least you’ve, rather than telling me it’s important, I’ve now made the decision it’s important, which makes the process a little faster, a little easier to go through. So there’s where I think that personal purpose has to come in. You can tell me all day, but once I fail, once my prediction fails, I’m in.

And I was thinking the other day this happened to me. It’s funny, it doesn’t matter how much change you do, in the wrong situations, your old autopilot will kick back in. So I’ve been in Australia now for 10 years, where the steering wheel is on the other side of the car. So I’m really good now at driving on the wrong side of the road.

But the other day, we were moving house – this was a couple of weeks ago, we’re just moving now – I must have just been so stressed between moving and taking care of work and the car and the dogs that I wasn’t  paying attention, I pumped gas, paid, went back to my car and I got in the wrong side and put my keys into thin air. I just went back to my old autopilot where the wheel should be on this side. And I went through the complete motion of getting in and turning on a car on the wrong side of the car.

It didn’t matter that, for 10 years, I’ve been practicing something new, under enough stress I went right back to my old pattern. So it’s something you’ve just got to keep pushing, keep pressing because the old patterns are still going to be in there.

Angela: And, you know, that awareness is really important and I talk to my clients about this all the time, how your brain will constantly go on autopilot, default, and your job – and the beautiful thing about being human is that you have the ability to create awareness about your thoughts. And when you catch yourself going on that autopilot, you can stop, reflect, become aware again. And actually, the brain really does love a challenge. We like to solve hard problems. We like to be creative and seek out solutions. So I see what you’re saying about that shift from going on autopilot because it’s easy and more comfortable to, like, I want to solve this new problem, I want to figure this out, I love a challenge. And even more than that, I love figuring out the answer, the solution, the win. So it’s very powerful.

Jared: Learn to embrace that and everything is awesome after that. People who learn to love that challenge are the game-changers. They’re the movers and the shakers because they’re always learning. They never shutdown their coder. They’re always trying to change their old predictions. So I love that. If you can learn to love that, you’re good.

Angela: So what advice can you give to the school leaders and educators out there who are listening who are wondering how to support their staff with implementing new concepts for themselves and their students?

Jared: Three things I would think for that is, one, help them find their purpose.  If it’s just another thing that they have to do, if it’s just another top-down implementation tool, something different is going to happen in five years, it’s real hard to get them to connect. But if you can get them into that process where they see why it’s so important and what the important outcomes are going to be – so give them the purpose, step number one.

Two, give them the time. I think often, because they’re adults, we try and rush them through training and learning and then we’re real mad at them when they don’t apply it. But they’re just students. I wouldn’t expect a kid to know math in one week, why would I expect an adult to change in one week? So we’ve also got to give them the time and support to try to chip away.

Don’t change everything in one semester. Change one brick at a time. See how it worked. Change the next brick. See how it worked. Give them time to chip away and big changes will start to happen.
And the third thing I typically say is, be cognoscente of how people think. And this is a little more specific. So rules like, it’s impossible for human beings to read words while listening to somebody speak simultaneously – it’s a hardware problem in the brain, it will never happen. So this is like a hardcore learning rule that now, when you go back as a leader and you see sometimes you run meetings, sometimes you run training sessions where you have handouts with words, you have PowerPoints with words and you’re asking them to do the impossible, to listen to me, to learn, while reading all of this other stuff.

They can’t do it, so you’re actually hurting their ability to learn and change simply because of the way you’re bringing them the information. So I always say the third thing is be cognoscente of these learning principles; how do people think? How do people learn? And then you can leverage those just to make the process easier. Take away all obstacles that we’re accidentally putting in when we’re teaching and learning. Make the learning as easy, clear, simple as possible, and then purpose and time actually start to have an impact as opposed to just if you’re teaching something wrong, all the time in the world is never going to work. So just be clear on how people think and learn and use that to your advantage.

Angela: Absolutely, yep, our teachers are our students, just like our students are our students. And I think it’s important to recognize, like, think about the way that you learn as an individual and the time that you need to process and the resistance that you feel at times when something is new and it’s hard and it’s difficult and it’s challenging and just be cognoscente of that for your teachers. And I do think that most school leaders out there are very, you know, aware and they try their best to provide that support that the teachers need in terms of learning new things. But the district, the county, the state, feds, whatever, demand perfection basically is what’s happening out there, from our poor teachers. And so breaking these concepts down – and I love how you said, you know, just one brick at a time – if we can just focus on the one brick at a time, we don’t need to worry about the rest. I feel like the stress levels in education for the adult people in the industry will decrease.

Jared: Yeah, I see that kind of left and right too. So you’ve got, kind of, it’s this difference between proximal goals and distal goals. So you have what’s called a distal goal, which is my big vision for my school. In five years, I want us to do X. Great. Proximal goals are what do I have to do today to take the next step towards that? And we’ve found that when people focus only on the distal goals, the big picture, A, stress levels go through the roof, like you said. B, they start to multitask because they start to try and tackle 10 projects at once. And because of that, almost nothing changes and they go back to normal.

Whereas if you just take the big picture and go, cool, shovel that over here, put that in the cupboard, now today, all we’re going to do is one thing and tomorrow all we’re going to do is one thing, it becomes a lot more manageable and, sooner or later, even if you don’t even think about the distal goal, you blink and the distal goal has appeared, it’s arrived.

So you’re right, kind of cutting back to just the day to day, piece by piece, moment by moment things we can do, that helps people actually engage and that leads you to these big changes, that if you try and focus on the big change, everyone gets hogtied and you’re stuck where you’re at. So I think you’re absolutely right on that point.

Angela: Yeah, exactly. That’s’ exactly what I teach my clients how to do, how to break it down from the big to the small and the small little steps are what gets you to the big step. You don’t even have to worry about that big goal. It’s about the baby steps you take to get there. And it really helps your brain wrap around the how. People get so caught up in, but how am I going to increase test scores, how are we going to improve in the next three to five years? Those improvement plans, I understand why they’re there, but the reality is we’ve got to talk about what we’re doing today, here, right now in this moment. And if the brain can focus on that, it’s just so much easier to digest and accept the new concepts, the new information, the new learning.

Jared: And you see it in kids too. If you give them a big final project on day one and say, cool by the end of this term I want a 50,000-word thesis, they’ll scramble and you’ll get nothing by the end of the term. So what do we do with our students? We let them know that that’s the ultimate goal and then we pull them back and say, but don’t worry about it, we’re going to build that together. So just like we do with our students, we’ve got to do it with our adults too.

I think there’s this mistake that for some reason, because we’re adults, we learn and think differently. No, we might be a little harder to engage with because we might act cooler and be like, these activities are silly, but trust me, we learn the same way. So anything that works for students, trust me, it will work for adults too. And even though they might push back a little harder of you ask them to do a recall session, it’s going to work for them. It’s how we all learn.

Angela: Exactly. So, Jared, if my listeners want to reach out to you in some way or learn more information about your work, where can they go?

Jared: I’ve got a new book, my first non-academic book published, so the first book that I actually like. I don’t even read my old academic books, they’re so dry. But this one, I wrote for teachers. It was my translation moment. It’s like, here are the key nuggets I’ve picked up over the last 12 years.

So the book is called Stop Talking, Start Influencing: 12 Insights from Brain Science to Make Your Message Stick. And essentially, each chapter is just a learning nugget. Each chapter says here’s one big principle of how human beings learn, with the idea that we can then adapt that for our practices.

So I’ve got that book out there, which is my favorite thing right now, and I’ve also got a website called lmeglobal.net. And on there, I’ve got just video clips. So I’ve tried to make movies for each of the principles to help people better understand them. So there’s a bunch of clips, articles that we’ve written about learning, and anything that you look up for me is just going to have to do with learning; how do human beings learn?

And I like to kind of make it clear for teachers that once you know how people learn, that doesn’t dictate how you teach. Learning and teaching are two very different things. So when you dive into the learning, it’s going to give you new concepts. It’s going to give you a new lens to understand things through. But it’s not going to tell you how to teach.

Your expertise, being a teacher, the reason you went to school, the reason you’ve been doing this for 20 years is so you can take that knowledge and apply that to your context. There’s nothing I dislike more than when a scientist says, because the brain does this, you should teach like this. Nonsense, you don’t know my context, you don’t know my students. You can tell me how people learn and then leave it to me and my expertise to adapt that for my practice.

So you’ll see I’m very strong on not telling you this is because of this, do this.  You’ll learn how people learn, and then you’ll have the power to go back and say, cool, what does this mean for me, for my class, for my students, for my teachers? And adapt it accordingly.

Angela: I love it. Well, I’ve had the pleasure and the luxury of being able to read the book. It’s fascinating. It’s so in alignment with what I’m trying to do in terms of teaching my clients and my students about the power of their mind and the power of those stories and how those stories can be reframed to take on challenging tasks and to solve problems in a new light. So I really love your work, Jared, and I’m so glad that we were able to connect and I look forward to continue working with you.

Jared: Absolutely, let’s keep in touch and there’s tons more we can do. We’re all on a good path here, so let’s keep it up.

Angela: You got it, awesome. Alright, and I’ll be sure to put all of your information in the show notes so that listeners can reach out to you, get the book, check out the website, and if they have further questions, they can contact you.

Jared: Absolutely, yeah, and I’m happy to answer emails anytime. I’m super easy to get a hold of.

Angela: Awesome, Jared, again, thank you so much for your time and I look forward to staying in touch.

Jared: Thank you, talk to you soon.

Angela: Okay, thanks so much.

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So, there you have it. So many great nuggets of wisdom form Jared. If you are interested in his work, you can find his book. Stop Talking, Start Influencing, on Amazon.  I’ll be sure to post the link in the show notes below.

If you want more information on how to create influential PD, I am in the process of creating a new professional development program that includes all the tools and strategies that I use with my private clients. This is like no other PD before. I’m bringing personal development to professional development. So for more information, please reach out to me at angelakellycoaching@gmail.com. Have an amazing week, you guys, I will talk with you all next week.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Empowered Principal Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, please visit www.angelakellycoaching.com where you can sign up for weekly updates and learn more about the tools that will help you become an emotionally fit school leader.