Ep #188: Interview Preparation and Landing Your Dream Job with Kate

Hello empowered principals. Welcome to episode 188.

Welcome to The Empowered Principal Podcast, a not so typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host certified life coach Angela Kelly Robeck.

Angela: Hello empowered principals. Happy Tuesday, and welcome to the podcast. I have a very special treat for you today. With me here on the podcast is one of my newer clients. Her name is Kate. She is a brand new principal. This will be her first year coming into the school year as a principal. She’s going to tell you her entire story, and how she and I connected prior to becoming a principal, and how we were able to work together for her to land her first dream job. So Kate, welcome to the podcast.

Kate:  Thank you.

Angela:  So fun to have you here. So Kate and I have been working together maybe two to three months I’m gonna say. Like right around then. I think, yeah, we started working together sometime in around April I’m thinking, right?

Kate:  Right.

Angela:  Yeah. Kate, at the time, was applying to a position. So Kate, can you tell the listeners the position you were in in your prior district and the position you were trying to land, and how you and I connected to make that happen for yourself?

Kate:  Yeah, absolutely. So I was working as a Title I and Title III coordinator. So my role was very much administrative. There was a lot of leadership to it, but it was a teacher contract. I was really ready for that next step. I was really ready to just broaden my horizons and work on my leadership capacities. So I went back to school a couple of years ago and got my master’s in educational leadership.

An opening popped up in a nearby district for an assistant principal position at the elementary level, which is exactly what I wanted. And a very desirable district, one that everyone wants to work there for a lot of reasons. In any case, I was really excited about seeing that posting. This was back in March.

So I loved the position I was in. I loved Title I and Title III working with our English learners and all of those families. Our district was very linguistically diverse, had students from all over the world. Yeah, it was a great spot, but like I said I was ready. I was ready to pursue becoming a principal or at least an assistant principal.

So I have been listening to your podcast for a few years. I think it was when I started my master’s program. I kind of just stumbled upon it but was learning so much. When I was applying for this job, I’m writing all these essays. Found out that I had an interview. To be totally honest, the thought of an interview was absolutely terrifying for me. So I was just completely out of practice. I had been working in the same school district my entire career. Yeah so, the thought of it was just really scary.

It’s interesting because I feel like some people are like, “Oh this is a breeze.” They go in very confident. Like I said, for me it was just a really scary thing. So I felt like I needed to take control. I needed to do something about it.  To kind of face that fear and build that confidence. I thought to myself, “This is an opportunity I cannot miss. This job is made for me.”

So I reached out to you. Our first conversation was in April, like two and a half months ago maybe. I just remember saying to you that the thought of interviewing made me want to throw up. That’s how nervous I was. You’re going, “Okay, we need to do something about this.” So yeah. I wanted it so badly. I thought I’ve got to work on this. I have to nail this interview. Anyway we really doubled up on that coaching right off the bat. Really hit the ground running. I went into the interview, and I nailed it. And I got the job.

Angela:  It was so exciting.

Kate: Haven’t started yet, but I’m thrilled.

Angela:  It was so exciting.

Kate:  The excitement hasn’t worn off.

Angela:  Yes, no. It was so great. What I love about Kate’s story, and the reason I asked her to be on the podcast so soon after she started coaching was because I have not seen a client implement so quickly, so immediately. Hunker down and take the tools that I offered to her. She used them to the best of her ability.

I remember sending the intentional belief building worksheet, and you worked on that to the capacity to which you turned around your thoughts about the interview itself and the interview process. Actually believing in yourself that you had enough information, enough experience, enough to draw from that you were going to say the right things. You were going to enjoy the process. You were actually going to have fun doing this. That helped you be more relaxed, and of course you nailed it. It’s not simply because you had a coach. It’s because you applied the coaching.

So can you tell, and even explain to me a little bit, like what did that look like for you in the beginning when you first started working with me? I remember. We were doubling down on sessions, right, because the interview was just a few weeks away, I think, prior to us working together. So what was your process in terms of that implementation?

Kate:  Well, I’m a perfectionist. I’m very type A. I’m thinking, “I’ve got to prepare, prepare, prepare.” Of course you need to prepare. I remember I was really kind of freaked out about it and wanting to spend every waking moment outside of work preparing. One of the things that you and I discussed was that like yes, you need to be prepared, but don’t over prepare. I think I needed to kind of take a step back and think about all of the things that I’ve done up until this point. The things that I have accomplished and the skills that I’ve homed in on and all of those things.

Beyond that, that intentional belief building was so powerful for me. You asked me to kind of make a list of adjectives or descriptors or things that I wanted to feel going into that interview. I started off with a pretty long list. Then I narrowed it down to basically 30 things. It was I want to be prepared, I want to be calm, and I want to be confident.

The preparation, like I said, I did all that. I researched the district. I spoke to a leader there ahead of time. I did some practice interviewing with some of my colleagues and things like that. Then going through that intentional belief building, it really makes you stop and think about similar situations that you’ve been in where it’s like, “Yes, I was calm in this kind of intimidating environment or whatever it was. Yes, I am prepared, and here is why. I’m confident.” For me, the confidence piece was really big because I was just so nervous, you know.

So using those intentional belief building sheets, that was huge for me. In fact, even the morning of the interview. I was actually walking in before I even went in, that was the last thing that I looked at. I was just reading it out loud and just thinking about it. Going in, I sat down. I was in a room of all of the district leaders. So there were probably 10 people in there. It was all of the elementary principals. It was the curriculum directors, special ed director, head of HR. So yeah. Walking into that, you would think, “Oh this is a lot.”

Angela:  This is intense, yeah.

Kate:  I was very calm. Yeah, I was calm. It was like do I think I blew every question out of the water? Probably not. But I did well. Interestingly as I was walking out, the head of HR walked me out. He goes, “Gosh, you were so calm in there.” I said, “Oh thank you.” So yeah. That process was huge for me.

Angela:  This is something I want to point out about Kate because there are two aspects to preparing. So yes, the part that your brain tells you to do is research the questions, research the district, do the practice interviews, read the 200 questions that you might be asked to have your brain be aware of the types of questions you’re going to be asked. I will say yes, 100%. You do need to do that type of preparation.

The other aspect of this, and this is the reason why you’ll hear people say, “I prepared for hours. I did all the work. I cannot land the job. I’ve interviewed 10 times or 20 times. I cannot land the job.” The reason why that tends to be the case, not always, I believe what tends to be the case is we don’t do this part. The mindset prep work that goes along in combination with the skillset prep work, the information prep work that is required of you to know.

If you have all that information inside of you but you’re so nervous or you don’t believe in yourself enough to go in there and speak to that, it doesn’t matter how much you prepared the content of your answers. You need to go in understanding how you want to feel during that interview so that you can—what’s the word I’m looking for—emit that emotion, which you did. When they said to you, “You were so calm,” it’s because you’ve been practicing in your mind how to be calm in that kind of a situation.

Kate:  Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Angela:  So, so cool. I cried the day you called me and said you got that interview because I knew the power of coaching that it would have. It would be that edge. It’s that difference between being prepared but being nervous and being prepared and being mentally and emotionally prepared as well. I was just so proud of you that you were able to land that job. I know how much that job meant to you, and how ideal the math was for both of you. It was a great fit for you, and you’re a great fit for them.

So what are your thoughts now as you’re transitioning? Like we had to close out last year, and you had to kind of say your goodbyes. Have a closing ceremony basically for your last district because you loved them so much. Now going into this new district, what are the thoughts you’re having about the up and coming days ahead?

Kate:  I mean I’m super excited. I think going back to what you said about it being kind of a mutual match. With that interview, you don’t know exactly what they’re going to ask you, right? When I think about some of the questions that they had and some of the answers that I gave. Now that I’ve been somewhat in the district, we’re doing a leadership series this summer and things like that. It’s like oh wow. We’re so on the same page about X, Y, or Z, you know?

I think back to that interview, and it’s like I’m glad that I didn’t over prepare because my answers were authentic to my beliefs and my values and education. We share those. So it’s like, you know, it very much so is a mutual thing. So yeah. Moving forward I’m just so excited because I feel like I have found my place. Of course there’s going to be challenges ahead, but that’s why I have you to help work through those.

Angela:  Exactly.

Kate:  Yeah. So, but yeah. I’m thrilled. I’m in a good spot right now because it was emotional leaving my district. I actually grew up there. Did my student teaching there, and landed my first job, and was there ever since. So it was definitely bittersweet. All those relationships that you built with your principal and other leaders in the district. Just so many people in the building and in other buildings. My position was very unique. I worked with all five of our schools. So yeah. Like I said, it was bittersweet. At this point it’s like I’m just in a place where I’m ready for the next chapter.

Angela:  Yes, yes. I know. I’m so excited for the year ahead to work with you and just see all of the amazing accomplishments you’re going to have in your first year. It’s so exciting for both of us. I want to reiterate something that Kate mentioned a minute ago where she said she’s glad she didn’t over prepare because it helped her be her authentic self.

So I was just teaching a client this morning. She is in the interview process. She’s in the beginning stages of it where she’s decided she’s ready for a new experience. She was asking the questions like, “How should I prepare? What should I put on my resume? Can you read my resume?”

So we were having this conversation about when we’re thinking that the resume or even that the right answers are what lands you the job versus what lands you the job is being you. That whole idea of yes, you want to again do the work of having your resume ready and being prepared in those interview questions.

But the overworking, the overpreparing, and the overanalyzing every last detail actually puts you in a space that’s a little less authentic because you’re thinking about what they want to hear from you versus, “This is who I am. This is the experience I bring to the table. This is what I have to offer as myself.” You will find the right match when you are putting yourself out there as that authentic version of yourself. Would you say that’s true Kate?

Kate:  Yeah, definitely.

Angela:  Yeah.

Kate:  I’m sure I’m going to see more and more of that moving forward. I haven’t officially started the job yet. In some of the conversations I’ve had with people and in the leadership series when we’ve gathered and things, it’s like okay yes. We’re on the same page.

Angela:  Right.

Kate:  Which is really important.

Angela:  So I know we’ve only coached for a couple of months together, but I’m curious to know. Based on the coaching we’ve done for the interview process, what thoughts are you bringing with you as you enter into your first weeks and days as a school leader?

Kate:  So I think it’s in my nature to want to prepare, prepare, prepare. Kind of try and get a head start and be ready for whatever comes my way. I think after going through the interviewing process and having so many conversations with you like with our coaching, I’ve just learned that—Not to say that I’m going to go on and wing it. But you have to think about all the work that you’ve done up until this point to build your leadership capacities and figure out what you value and figure out how you handle situations and how well your intuition works and things like that.

So yeah. I feel like I’ve kind of taken a step back from that sort of anxiety of like, “I’ve got to be ready. I need to know exactly what I’m going to do.” Just kind of have more faith in myself and more confidence that I am ready for this. That as challenges do come up, I have the tools to work through them.

I think that coaching is kind of like a comfort for me too because I am someone that does need to talk through things. That’s a great way to process. So I’m looking forward to being able to sit down with you for the first time when I have had something crazy happen my first week on the job and being able to work through that with you. Kind of run through the thought process.

Angela:  It warms my heart to know that this is a comfort zone for you because it’s nice to know that no matter what goes on at school that there’s somebody you can talk to each and every week. You know you’ve got that person you can talk with. I remember I had a coach that was designated to me through my school district, and I loved her dearly. It wasn’t this kind of coaching. It was more like mentorship coaching through a program. So it had modules and it had things we had to do, but she was such a skilled coach I knew I could run anything by her. I could actually feel all the feels.

When I was having a bad day, I could cry, or I could just share with her how tired I was and how exhausted I was. I could not figure out work/life balance in the beginning of it all. I had her to say to me, “When you’re here, be present. When you’re home, be present. It’s okay to let it wait until tomorrow.” I started learning that skill early on. So I know a lot of listeners out there really do struggle with work/life balance.

As a type A overachiever that you are and that many of us are out here, how do you plan to approach the position in a way that helps you get the job done and be effective as a school leader. Also I know you’ve got a lot going on personally that is also exciting with your new house and all of that. How do you plan to balance that and navigate that part of the work?

Kate:  You know, I think that’s always an area that’s a work in progress because I had a lot of 12 hour days in my last position. Especially at the beginning of the school year when I was trying to get the programs up and running. There was so much involved in that. I think just telling myself that I can’t do the 12 hour days. I can’t be a good wife and a good daughter and a good friend and all these different things when I’m at work for 12 hours.

That’s not to say, I mean yeah. Sometimes you’re going to have to put in the time. Sometimes you have to open the laptop on a Sunday afternoon or something. I think it’s about setting appropriate boundaries and talking with your leadership about okay, I am willing to do X, Y, and Z, but maybe stop checking emails at 5:00 at night. Whatever it may be. I mean that’s going to take some time to kind of figure out what works.

I think it’s just important to kind of have that off switch. Me personally I for a long time had my work email on my phone. I removed it from my phone all together. That was really helpful. Of course I could still obviously get into the internet and open it up or whatever, but just not having that constant notification there really helped me separate myself. Sometimes even just at night turning my phone off all together. Because with COVID and everything, I mean then we became so dependent on our technology and group texting and all these different things.

Angela:  Yeah.

Kate:  So yes. There were times I would tell the staff that I was overseeing, “Okay. I’m not accepting any calls or texts after 7:00 p.m.” Or whatever it was. So yeah. I think it’s about finding those boundaries and finding those little things that make you, like you said, just be present where you are at home and night. Yeah, as you mentioned we have a lot going on. My husband and I are renovating a home that’s almost 100 years old. It’s basically his full time job for now.

So yeah. It’s like you’ve got to have the work/life balance. Because as much as work means to us as educational leaders, you have to keep your sanity and be able to shut it off so that you can wake up the next day and be prepared. Be prepared for the day.

Angela:  Yeah, exactly. So a couple of things that this makes me think of, number one, setting boundaries is an action that school leaders take. So that has to come from the belief system that number one, your personal time is valuable and important.

Number two, that everybody is going to be okay if you turn your phone off or if you take the email off the phone. Life will still happen. School will still be standing when you get there the next day. Trust me. If the building’s on fire, you’re going to find out. So if something really is a true emergency, there are multiple ways to get ahold of you. Setting up the expectation ahead of time can only happen when you believe that the boundaries are appropriate, that your personal lifetime also matters, and that it’s okay. Other people will be okay if they don’t have 24/7 access to you.

I’m going to venture to say. I just did a podcast on this. It will be dropping in the near future, but it’s how to build up a resourceful staff where you want your teachers and your support staff. You want them to have not so much access to you because it requires them to solve problems, for them to think about solutions, for them to look outside of other resources so you’re not the only go to person for every single little thing that comes up on the campus.

So empowering your staff, your people to kind of figure it out and struggle a little bit and have to wait 12 or 24 hours to answer to an email. That’s okay for other people to sit in a little bit of discomfort so you can have the rest that you need to be prepared and ready for the next day, and that you have a life outside of school.

Kate:  Yeah. Absolutely. You’re right. People do find a way. They figure it out. I think it’s so important to add that value to our teachers and make them feel empowered to make certain decisions and problem solve. We know if they’re capable of it. So yeah. Allowing them to do so.

Angela:  Yeah. The other thing I love that you said was this idea of valuing a work/life balance. I want to highlight something for people on this, especially school leaders. If you’ve been in it a while and you’re thinking, “Just wait until you get in the job.” Well, what Kate means by this work/life balance. It doesn’t mean that every single day feels balanced or that even a week feels balanced or maybe even a month.

Over the course of time, your expectations for yourself are like, “I’m willing to work hard and put in some 12 hour days to get school set up.” It tends to be when school gets started is the hardest part. You’re kind of pushing that ball upwards. Then at the end of the year, there’s a lot of extra things you have to do. Planning ahead of time to put time in the middle to give yourself a break in October. Don’t hold your breath from August until December until that holiday break comes or wait then another six months until the summer break. Find incremental spaces in your year where you can get some rest and some lower work hours that you need.

So the 50/50 balance, I really invite people to consider looking at it from like a year perspective versus a day to day or a week to week perspective. Because if you start nickeling and diming your time, that’s where you start to feel resentful about the work that you have to do. Then you end up either blowing it off or overworking, but you’re doing it from a place of resentment. That’s not what I wish for the listeners out there. So thank you for saying that, Kate. That’s really, really good input.

So I know we’ve only worked together for a short time, but have you had any shifts in perspective or thoughts about work, school, education, life that have impacted you over the last two months?

Kate:  Yeah. I think the belief in yourself has been huge for me. Just not being so critical and so hard on myself about things. Knowing that okay, I may not get it right every time on the first time, but that’s all part of the learning process. It’s about really kind of looking at the situation and thinking about how you’re going to move forward. That forward thinking has been really powerful for me.

Angela:  Yeah, yeah. I think when we spend our energy criticizing what we didn’t do right and making mistakes as we label them. Making them mean that something’s wrong with us or that we should have done it differently than we did, that’s giving ourselves no space for learning.

Especially new leaders out there. Of course it’s going to be new. Of course you’ll get it wrong sometimes. Of course you’ll make a mistake. You’re in the job to learn. That’s why you’re doing it. You want to grow yourself and evolve yourself and expand your capacity to have an impact on students and families and staff and the whole field of education. That comes with the territory. It’s the entrance fee into a bigger life, into a bigger position and having a bigger influence and impact as a leader.

So with that, when you cannot make it mean something’s personally wrong and you can just enjoy the process. Say, “Oops, messed that one up. I’m going to learn from that and try again.” Then be able to move on without perseverating over it day after day.

I feel like when I made that shift, at least for me, it made the job feel lighter. I didn’t take it so seriously. When I first got hired, I thought I’ve got to grow up. Get really serious. This is the big leagues. I’ve gotta put on my big girl panties and get to it. I was killing myself working. Overworking, overworking. As a single mom too. I was really pushing off my personal life, and it was not sustainable.

So I’m excited for you to know that as you’re going into this job from the very beginning, you’re having thoughts about how to create that balance and that 50/50 and those boundaries for yourself right off the bat. So that you can maybe avoid some of the pain I went through my first few years.

Kate:  Yeah. I know one of the things that we’ve talked about is just being honest about when certain situations come up. Maybe I don’t have the answer every time. I’ve worked with some leaders who I feel like they feel they have to have the answer every single time and give an answer. It’s like it’s okay to say I don’t know yet, but I’m going to figure this out.

So this is not only a new position for me, but it’s a new position for the district. They previously did not have assistant principals at the elementary levels. So there’s a learning curve on kind of all accounts. So I think just being able to be honest and say to people, “Okay. That’s a great question. I don’t have the answer right now, but I’m going to figure it out. Or we’re going to figure it out together.”

Angela:  Right. That’s such a great line by the way. So I want all people to borrow that line. I don’t know, but I’m going to figure it out. Right? Because it shows that you’re not perfect. That you’re honest and authentic with people. Everybody knows that you’re new. There’s no reason to hide that fact or to pretend you know something you don’t. So just don’t do that. It also shows confidence in yourself. “I don’t know, and I’m going to figure this out. Or and we’re going to get the answer we need. And I’ll get back to you.” Whatever the tagline is for that, but it’s that and piece.

This is something that I’ve observed within myself and with other clients is that we tend to have an all or none mentality. Like we have to know it, or we don’t versus saying, “I don’t know, and it’s okay and I’ll figure it out.” That little ‘and’ piece I think is what gives us the balance in our brains in terms of who we’re becoming as a leader. It’s like we are a leader technically with the title, but we don’t feel like we have the skillset but we’re doing both. We are a leader and we’re figuring it out. I think that’s true throughout the whole trajectory of the school leadership experience.

Kate:  Oh yeah. Yeah.

Angela:  Yeah, there’s always something new. There will always be something new. There will always be something you don’t know. Just embracing that from the beginning is going to be so much more relief as a new leader.

Kate:  Yeah, yeah.  Because I think sometimes, we put so much pressure on ourselves. Being in a leadership position, I mean yes there’s a lot on us. There’s a lot of problem solving and decision making. It is a lot, of course. I think just giving ourself some grace and not being so hard on ourself and sometimes just being honest and saying, “I don’t know yet, but I will figure it out.”

Angela:  Exactly. No, exactly. Okay. So I want to just ask you one last question. When you think about the trajectory of your career from now until the end of it and you’re looking back at the end of your career, I just am curious to know what your vision is for yourself? What do you perceive? How do you think coaching will help you obtain those career goals that you’re looking for?

How do I say this? The experience of school leadership and thinking about how you want the experience to feel from now until the end of the career. Then looking back, how do you want to feel having had had? What comes up for you when you think about the impact that you’re going to create from now until then, and how coaching can help you achieve all of those accomplishments along the way?

Kate:  Well, I mean I think reflection is really critical. I think with time and experience, you learn so much about leadership. You look back and say, “Wow, I was young and dumb.” No, but just thinking back to the way that maybe you did things before. You’re thinking, “Okay, that was an epic fail, but look at how far I’ve come.”

So yeah. I look forward to seeing my growth as a leader. I think in my former position, like I said, I was in kind of a quasi-administrative role, and was overseeing staff and doing a lot of administrative tasks. There are so many aspects of leadership that I have not yet been able to explore that I’m looking forward to in this new role. So yeah.

For one, I’ll be really interested to see how that former position prepared me or didn’t prepare me. You know like maybe I overestimated how much “administrative work” I was doing. I don’t know. So yeah. I’m just really big on kind of that reflection of wow. Look at how far I’ve come? Looking at the things that I’ve done and maybe the things that I’m going to change moving forward. Just that growth, you know? That’s what’s so exciting about leadership. That no matter where you are, there’s so much opportunity for growth. That’s exciting to me.

Angela:  I just love it. You’re such a powerhouse, and you’re such an instant implementer. That’s really what drew me to you and wanting to work with you is because I saw how quickly you implemented things. That over the course of time, that will compound, and it will be so fascinating to see the changes and the impact that you do have at your school and at schools to come. I envision you’re going much farther than site leadership in your career. It’s just such an honor to work with you and know you. I love it so much.

So as we wrap up, there are a lot of teachers. Like teachers who maybe want to be in instructional coaching positions or in other kind of positions similar to your own that you just resigned from, and/or people who are wanting to become a principal. What words of wisdom have you learned over the last few months in your process of going from teacher to teacher leader to now principal do you have for those listeners out there?

Kate:  Well, for one I mean I have learned over the years how critical communication is and how critical valuing your people is. That environment that I created in my room where I was was really built on those things. On solid communication and building relationships with people. Really investing in your people and knowing that making them understand that you’re in their corner and you’re there to support them. Just adding value to them and building their capacities.

I worked with a lot of paraprofessionals, and many of them went on to teaching roles. For me, that was a great accomplishment. So yeah. I think just working on those different aspects of leadership relationships and communication and valuing people and building people. Also just really looking at being honest with yourself about your strengths and your areas in need of growth, you know?

I had a professor that would always tell us “run to your weaknesses”. You know that’s hard. It’s hard to look within ourselves and say, “Wow, I really stink at that.” Then run to that, you know.

Angela:  Right.

Kate:  But that was a piece of advice that I really carried with me because I feel like, again, that’s where the growth comes in. It’s okay. If I’m not great with X, Y, or Z and I know that’s a critical aspect of leadership. You know whether it’s speaking with parents or public speaking or diffusing situations or whatever it is. It’s like work on it. Then build your confidence. Yeah. I think that would be a good starting point.

Angela:  Yes, that is. Education is the business of people. We are in the business of evolving humans. By spending your time and valuing connection, right, and relationships over paperwork and processes and testing or whatever. Not that you don’t include those things, but to really value those connection pieces and being good to your people, like you said. That will help you grow because this is the art and science of what we do in education.

We’re here to help people. We’re here to connect with them and figure out what they need and how they need it. And do it in a way that’s authentically us. Not show up trying to be somebody we’re not because we think that’s what people need or what people want. Bringing our own unique experiences, adding them to the table, and then being reflective within ourselves about who we are and who we want to become and what we need to do in order to get there.

So I love that so much. That’s such a brilliant way to end the podcast. Thank you so much Kate for being on. This was such an honor to have you. I’m so proud of your courage to come on so early. You know what I would love to do? I would love to do a follow up podcast at the end of the school year next year and tell everybody how things went. Show them just the journey. What the journey was like for you.

Kate:  Let’s do it.

Angela:  Okay. That would be so fun. All right. Thank you again for being on the podcast.

Kate:  Thank you for having me.

Angela:  Yes, yep. We’ll talk soon.

Kate:  All right, thanks.

Angela:  Bye.

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