Ep #182: The Reality of Being Coached with Dena Ford

Hello empowered principles. Welcome to episode 182.

Welcome to The Empowered Principal Podcast, a not so typical educational resource that will teach you how to gain control of your career and get emotionally fit to lead your school and your life with joy by refining your most powerful tool, your mind. Here’s your host certified life coach Angela Kelly Robeck.

Hello, my empowered leaders and happy Tuesday. Welcome to the podcast. I’m so happy you’re joining us. For those of you who are new to the podcast, welcome. I’m so happy that you’re here. I want to introduce a very special human to you all today. I have one of my favorite clients. They’re all my favorites. I have one of my favorite clients here. Her name is Dena Ford. She is the principal of a charter program.

We’ve been working together for I’m not even sure how long. Maybe half the school year. We started late in the fall, and we have been working together. It’s been so amazing for me. I have been very anxious to have her on the show to help listeners who might be nervous about coaching or want to understand more about coaching to really hear her story and her journey, and to provide you with the understanding of what coaching is coming from somebody other than me.

So we’re going to have a really fun conversation with Dena today. I just have been waiting for her to be on the show for so long. She’s finally agreed to say yes. So welcome her with open arms. Dena, welcome to the podcast.

Dena: Thank you Angela.

Angela: Okay. So Dena, I just want us to chat. Let’s just tell your story. Let’s talk about where you were prior to coaching, and what you were doing. And the reason you called out for coaching, the reason we connected. I love that story too. Then truly amazing transformation throughout the course of your school year, especially given the pandemic, all of the decisions you’ve had to make throughout the course of your leadership, and how you feel about leadership. And life now that we are, I don’t know, halfway through our coaching sessions together.

Dena: Okay. Well, when I, let’s see, first reached out, I was finishing my second year as director. So I had taught for 13 years, was an instructional coach for five years. Then our former director had left suddenly, and then I stepped in the role as director. So the first year was super challenging. It felt so good to be through that first year, but then the second year was just as challenging. Then towards, I guess it was spring, we had the pandemic. It was just being a new leader and going through something that I had no idea what to do, it was just craziness.

At about, I want to say, probably March of last year I started listening to your Empowered Principal podcast. I loved it. I was recovering from a knee surgery. So I remember being on my stationary bike or walking in the neighborhood, had my earbuds in, and was listening to the podcast. It just felt like real advice. Like what I truly needed to know in my position.

So then I think it was July, yep it was July last year. I was driving over to California. Now, this is right before California completely shut down. Getting ready to celebrate my birthday, meeting my sisters over in California. I had a friend with me. So I was telling her. And it wasn’t the first time I’ve told her about your podcast, but I was dreaming. So we’re driving Arizona to California, and I’m dreaming telling her I would love to have you as my coach.

So my very real friend said, “Well why not?” Now looking back I have to laugh at all the excuses I came up with in how it wasn’t really likely. You’re in California, I’m in Arizona. I’m at a small charter school. I’m not like other principals because I’m not at a big district school. So I just had all these excuses. And I have no idea what this will cost, etcetera, etcetera.

So she didn’t buy any of that. She just said, “Well, why don’t you just call and see what this is all about?” So I had my trip. It was beautiful, wonderful. I don’t know how long I waited to call you after coming back, but I did that first consultation. I was nervous about—Well I knew after talking to you that this is exactly what I needed, and that this would be helpful. But of course the obstacle for me was how in the world am I going to afford this? So I went through all of that.

Angela: Tell the listeners more about that because I’ve been doing two, three consults a day, and there’s two obstacles in their way primarily. Time and money.

Dena: Yep.

Angela: And of course, right. I mean they’re our top assets. Like we really want to make sure we make sound decisions with our time and with our money. Tell them how you solve that problem for yourself.

Dena: Well, for myself. First of all, I will back up and say time was. We talked through that right away. In all of our sessions, and I want to say we just finished 31 sessions I think last week. In all the sessions, there has been a recurring theme for me about time. It was wonderful to get through that obstacle realizing that all I had to do was schedule it in. Once a week an hour in the morning. So that was super helpful, and I got past that obstacle.

The money obstacle, that was kind of crazy. Then I realized number one, I knew I needed this. Number two, I knew it would help me. Then I realized that I make things happen. So I knew I could make this happen because I really truly wanted this. After talking to you, listening to the podcast, I wanted this. So I started brainstorming all the different ways.

I realized that more than anything else, this was my professional development. So I was able to look at it that way. What will help me is professional development. Instead of going to a conference, I needed this one on one help. So I was able to go to this board of directors and present that. It was so funny because I was nervous. They’re never going to approve this, etcetera. I do have a certain amount for professional development, but would I have enough?

I swear I sat there, presented all the reasons why this was important being a new leader. Not having that one on one help. They didn’t bat an eye. They approved it. They thought it was the greatest thing ever. I have checked in with them all through this year. They all are just super excited for me to have this coaching. So it helps me, but it helps them and the school and the children.

Angela: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. This month we’re talking about the value of different aspects of our life. I think the podcast just dropped today on the value of fun and the importance and the significance of having fun. And taking a break and scheduling in your calendar really does impact not just our professional wellbeing but our personal wellbeing and the greater purpose of our lives, right?

The point of life, the flavor and spice of life is to understand the deep value of not just being productive and being professional and being timely and having all of our ducks in a row. It’s also about spontaneity and humor and light heartedness and taking that respite from work and thinking about work and stewing over work and losing sleep over work. The value of that is significant.

What I hear you saying is the thought that helped you overcome the fear of the money and the time was, “I need this. I can figure this out. I will find a way to make this work. I make things happen.” That one thought is so empowering.

Dena: Yep, definitely.

Angela: It’s so good. It’s so good.

Dena: And what’s funny too is I did the first two years. I mean this year has been crazy. I have lost lots of sleep over my position and what I’m doing. Am I doing the right thing? All of that.  I will say that having these coaching sessions is so grounding for me. To know that I get to talk to you every single week. I think the best part for me is that it’s real time. So it’s not prescribed. It’s we can talk about whatever it is I need to work through. If I need to work through time abundance again, we will work through it again. I think that has been super helpful for me.

Angela: Oh so good. I love it so much. All right. So let’s switch gears here, and let’s talk about your journey. Really just tell the listeners. Listeners want to hear that connection piece. There are people out there just like you Dena who were worried that they didn’t have what it takes, didn’t have. Remember in the beginning it was like, “Well I’m not credentialed, or I don’t have this level of experience.” Those fears and worries.

Dena: Absolutely.

Angela: So tell me about where you were then where you’re at right now. It’s such a great story.

Dena: Well, first of all, when we had our first session. I don’t know if you remember this, but I was so excited that I just told you it felt like Christmas.

Angela: Yes.

Dena: I was so excited about this. I felt like a little kid being ready for Christmas morning. It felt so wonderful. Immediately we got to work. I did. I felt that was one of the excuses for—it’s so crazy—not getting coaching is that I’m not good enough. All of the things are counterintuitive, but I didn’t feel. I’m a brand new director. I hadn’t had all the training. Yes, I taught. Yes, I’d been an instructional coach. Yes, I believed I could be a leader before I became a leader. Then all of a sudden, I’m in this position, and then I start doubting myself.

So I didn’t think I knew enough or could do it. The funny thing is when we were talking, I had already done it for two years.

Angela: Right. Yes. So we talked about, I remember us saying like if we’re going to look at the side—Our brain offers us all the negative, right? It’s showing us what we don’t know, what we can’t do, what we haven’t tried, what we’re afraid of. So part of coaching is to balance that out. Like if you’re going to look at this 50% negative, let’s also look at what you do know and what you have accomplished and what you have experienced.  What was that like for you Dena? To like actually realize, wait a minute. I have been doing this. I’ve been doing this for two years.

Dena: Exactly. Yeah. I’m doing it. I’m doing it well. I have teachers that are happy. I have parents that are happy. All the evidence was pointing towards I’m doing it. What I’ve realized over all of our sessions is how I get in my own way. It’s definitely my thinking about things. My doubt. It’s not the evidence around me. So I think that was something too to realize and work through. We’ve worked through so many sessions with that.

It’s hard too because I’ve been at that school. I’ve just finished my 10^th year. So I became the director, and I’ve got all my colleagues and friends. So that role shift was super different, you know, to be a friend. Instructional coach is different then all of a sudden, “I’m your boss.”

Angela: Yes.

Dena: You know, even saying that too. It’s just I’m so close to the people I work with to then become their boss. That is challenging.

Angela: Yes. I did that as well. My first two years I was at a brand new school within my district. So I wasn’t working directly with my peers. But two years later my superintendent moved me back to my home school because the principal at my home school, who’s also a very close friend of mine, she moved up to some district level position. I can’t remember what she did, but she became a coordinator or something.

So they needed me. They said, “You know the school. Everybody loves you there.” I had taught there at least 15 years. But it was very difficult to go back, especially having been away for two years. So it wasn’t quite the   same crowd, but it was a lot of the same crowd. Those people were my friends outside of work. Then it became this like dance or navigating these relationships where it’s like when we’re at work, we’re at work. When we’re outside, we’re outside.

Some of those were really successful, and they are still really close friends to the day. Other people had a harder time transitioning and couldn’t tolerate that balance. It was like nope. You’re the boss now. What’d they say? “You’ve got to the dark side.”

Dena: Yes. Oh yeah. I can definitely relate. That is a challenge to know how to navigate through those relationships. Also just really realizing too that as director, my role is to do what’s in the very best interest of the school, the whole. So I’ve had to do a lot of that thinking. There’ve been hard conversations with teachers or parents. I just always have to do what’s in the best interest of the whole and really ultimately the children. Of course, that was evident this year through COVID. Lots of decisions needed to be made.

I also with coaching, I didn’t have anybody to go to. So there’s a superintendent of the school, the unified district here. We’re friends, and we’d talk every now and then, but my goodness. He’s got what 4,000 kids? Way too many. So he was available but not all the time. But it was so wonderful hearing from him too because what I realized is we were going through the same things, but on a different scale. His was a bigger scale than mine. In many ways, that was validating to know oh, we’re in this together. We are going through this.

But it felt so good to have you as a coach where you know what it’s like to be a principal and school leadership, but you’re not at the school. So it just feels real. I don’t know what I’m trying to say.

Angela: Well what you’re saying is we help neutralize the situation.

Dena: Right. Yes, yes, yes.

Angela: So what I bring by not being employed by your school. Like I don’t know the people. I don’t know the situations, but I know the context because I have been through it in so many different ways. You know I was an instructional coach, but I was a leader at two different choice programs. Like a charter type school within my district. Then I was at a gen ed public school with a lot of—I had three or four special ed classes. So I have a lot of context. It was a Title I school.

So I’ve been at both ends of the spectrum, and I’ve been at the district level. So that year at the district level gave me such a global perspective of what’s happening at the top, and how it looks coming down. Then my thoughts about looking up. Like what I thought was happening at the district level was very different than what’s actually happening at the district level, right?

So what I can do for principals now is I can come in, and I can hear your story. I’m not attached to it in the way that you just—This is what I love about coaching so much. My coach does the same thing for me. Like I tell her stories and situations I’m in, and I cannot see outside of that. Because it feels like absolute truth and reality. It is my reality, right?

Dena: Yep, yeah. Yeah.

Angela: She can come in and help me see outside like a different perspective, a different lens. That’s what I love helping. You can tell me a story that feels very hard for you, and we process that. It’s not that we dismiss it, right?

Dena: No, and it takes time.

Angela: Yes.

Dena: It takes time, right.

Angela: That’s one thing I love about you is that you will say, “I’m not ready.” Like you’ll know. You are so in tune with yourself now that you know. Like, “I need more time to process this emotion that I’m going through.” This is different than indecisiveness, right? It’s not stalling a decision or procrastinating it. It’s, “I know what I’m going to decide. I’m processing the emotion ahead of time. Then I have a clean mind and a clean heart to be able to go and have that conversation or make this decision and tell my staff.” Or whatever it is you’re going through.

There’s a pause there with you that I love, and I’ve been teaching it to other clients. I’m not saying be indecisive or procrastinate. What I’m saying is know your decision and process that emotion ahead of time. You’re really, really good at that.

Dena: Yeah. It is important to take, I mean I do need to take the time. I’ve always been like that. That is something too. Without coaching, I wasn’t able to neutralize my thoughts about situations. So that has been so eye opening. So now what happens moving forward is situations continue, issues continue. So I’m better equipped now to know, “Oh, here it is again. I need to journal. I need to do my work here in getting really clear about my thoughts around this situation before I speak sometimes or before I deal with it.”

Angela: Right, no.

Dena: That does feel good. I do have staff that have really noticed that this past year too. We have a teacher representative on our school board. And she just wanted to thank me for always taking the time to listen and taking the time to come back with a decision or my thoughts about it. It takes me a little time to make sure that I’m doing what needs to be done in the right way. So it just takes time and really processing through that.

Angela: Right. I love this because there is a time and a place to be super decisive. Decisiveness doesn’t mean hastiness, right? Decisiveness means I’m going to on my own accord look at all of it, right? Look at the pros, the cons, the cost associated with the decision, right. You’re guesstimating. What is the cost associated with not doing this or of doing this? Decision making doesn’t mean hastiness, but it does mean going through the motions, as you said.

Dena: Right.

Angela: And committing to that decision ahead of time in a way that even though it’s scarier, even though it’s hard, you’re going to process that emotion beforehand. So that when you’re in the moment, it doesn’t overwhelm you with emotion.

Dena: Right. It’s clear. It’s clarity.

Angela: Right. Like the fear, you’ve already processed the fear or processed kind of your anticipation of what you might be feeling. That’s done. Then you can do it with so much more. Because what do people want? They want confidence, right? They want to feel confident when they make a decision. But you can’t feel confident until you’ve processed the fear, the doubt, the worry. Whatever it is you’re feeling.

Dena: Yep, yep.

Angela: You’re really good at that.

Dena: One of the things too when you’re talking about that. The confidence leading a school, I know one of the things I’ve worked with you as well is public speaking. What’s so funny about that is go back to my first year, and we had a big year end celebration. Then by the second year we’re shut down. It’s COVID. So we didn’t have that celebration.

So what was wonderful is to then have the coaching with you. We got to the end of this year, had a modified celebration. So I had to do my public speaking etcetera, but it was in front of all the students and teachers which felt very comfortable, but it was a live stream.

Angela: Yeah.

Dena: It’s funny too. It’s one of those things too where I have to be ready to listen to myself as well. I get kind of funny about that. It’s like ooh. I don’t know if I want to hear myself. You know?

Angela: Yeah, I know. And here we are on the podcast.

Dena: I know.

Angela: It’s so good. You guys, the prompting, and the coaching it took to get her here is unbelievable, but I will tell you in such a good way. Now, I remember the thought that you were having. When we were starting to coach on public speaking, the thought that you had was, “I won’t know what to say. I won’t know how to answer or what to say. Then I’ll feel embarrassed. If we put it in the steer cycle, then I’ll feel embarrassed. Then I’m going to mess up even more. I’m going to run off the stage in embarrassment.” Or something, right?

Dena: Yep.

Angela: But what’s the thought now? When you think about public speaking, which thoughts have we shifted for you?

Dena: I just feel it’s what I need to do. It’s a way I’m communicating to the school. It doesn’t feel scary anymore. It’s just communicating what’s going on, and that feels more natural. So I think that is the thing too with the coaching. All of these things that were issues, problems, situations, etcetera. They don’t feel as big. I do feel so much more confident as a leader, you know.

Angela: Right because we’ve been working on all of the things you do know. So we’ve kind of rewired your brain to look at what experience do I have? What do I know? How do I make this conversation be very natural? When I’m getting up to speak in front of my school, I’m just going to tell them what I do know. I’m going to tell them what I do understand. I’m going to tell them what is clear to me.

Every time we’ve coached after something like that, you’ve always said, “It went so well. I knew exactly what I was saying. I didn’t even feel nervous.” It’s almost like the nervous part happens beforehand. Then you do the thing and you’re not nervous during it. Then you’re shocked that you were so comfortable.

Dena: Yeah, exactly.

Angela: I think that’s fun. Yeah, that’s so fun. So what do you feel Dena has been, what are some of the bigger shifts that you have felt in terms of your experience as a school leader? What feels different to you now that, before last year, let’s say. What’s the difference between last year and this year?

Dena: Oh such a big difference. I felt so overwhelmed. I felt there was so much to get done. I felt, honestly, like I was treading water. Keeping my head above water trying to get it all done. I feel so much more calm. So the biggest shift is just knowing that I do have the time, and I will get it done. So I think that is a big, big part.

So for me in the past, and I still have to work on this all the time with that time. Do I have time for this? The time abundance. For me, I know that I have the time to get all the things done, and still have a life. So that’s probably one of the biggest shifts for me. I don’t feel so overwhelmed.

In the past, even as a teacher, I would just feel like I had so much to do over the summer break or any break. I never felt like I took a break from it. Then it just carried on as a school leader, the same thing. I’m at a point now where it’s not sustainable. I see it in teachers, my teachers. I know it in myself. It’s not sustainable. So I’ve got to be able to live my life and have a life outside of the school, outside of being a school leader. My teachers need the same.

So the biggest shift, I think, for me, it’s so many different things. I’ve been able to establish work boundaries. I’ve been able to establish when it is I’m doing work at home versus having fun with my family. I feel that I’m a leader by example. So I have set these boundaries, you know, and have told my teachers, “Okay. You need a weekend. You need to restore and rejuvenate before you come back on Monday. You need to take the time.”

So I set my alerts or my email settings, etcetera, out of office. They are seeing that I’m doing that. It’s motivating them to do the same for themselves. So that’s a huge shift for me. Just last week, I think, we were sitting there talking with our session. Our session is at 9:00 a.m. And I love getting up early in the summer and having time to do all the things. I love to do yoga. I’ve got to get my dog out on a hike. I’m sitting there just listening to birds and feeling like, “Oh my gosh. I have so much time today. Look at what I’ve done, and it’s only 9:00.”

Angela: Yes.

Dena: I’ve really been catching myself a lot right now. Of course I’m on summer break, but really noticing that I feel that abundance of time. I’m scheduling all the things, but it’s such a mind shift.

Angela: Well, it’s an energetic shift too. Like there are people listening right now who cannot grasp, can’t even fathom the possibility that they might have more than enough time to do everything they want to do. It’s such a big gap from where they’re at to where you are and where they want to be.

Is there any steppingstone that you can recall that happened? Like any little shift or moment? Like obviously you said you started putting some boundaries around your work hours and your email answering hours. I’m just wanting to help them grasp, like expand that portal of possibility that we’ve been talking about. Like believing that what you do want and desire, this abundance of time, having enough money, being connected, having time alone, time for self-care, time with our own children. That we really can have all of that, but it comes incrementally.

Dena: Right, yeah. Yes.

Angela: You didn’t just wake up one day and decide, “Oh I guess I have all this time.”

Dena: Right, no. One of the things I did, and this was a big thing, I took my work email off my phone. So I took that off. It was so interesting to see how often I check my phone for those emails. So it took a while for me to—It was a realization that I’m never disconnecting. So when you don’t ever disconnect, you don’t feel like you have a break.

What is very funny now, and I can’t remember back when what month I did that. But now I’ve been able to put my email back on my phone, but I’m not looking at it. I’m more disciplined now. Like yes, it’s on my phone, but I’m definitely not looking at that because I’m not working these hours. I have two children, and my husband’s a firefighter. So he’s gone oftentimes during the week or during the weekend too. So it’s so important for me to unplug and make sure that I’m there for my children.

So I see that my teachers are seeing that I’m doing that, and I see that they’re starting to do that for themselves. I notice this too because all of a sudden, some teachers, I notice that they have that out of office set on their email. Not all my teachers, but some.

Angela: Yeah, hey. Well, that’s what we’re here for. Leadership is being the example of what is possible. If we believe that it’s possible to disconnect and still be an effective leader and have time with ourselves and our families. If we model that and we show how it’s done, our teachers will pick up. It’s just like our students. They’ll pick it up too, right?

Dena: Absolutely.

Angela: Like that’s what I love about this work is the ripple effect is so profound. As a site leader, you have so much more impact and influence and power than you realize, but we have to do it through…We can’t expect it out of others if we’re not willing to do it ourselves. What I love about what you just said was the moment that you decided to take your email off your phone. That must have felt—How did that feel?

Dena: Scary.

Angela: Because I can imagine listeners out there like, “Are you kidding me? How could you even consider doing that?” How did you teach yourself, process that decision? Then following through with it.

Dena: I recognized that I was checking it all the time. I recognized too that it was super unhealthy. Maybe thinking back to maybe it was one of my kids that said, “Mom, you’re always on your phone.” Well, I hate being told I’m always on my phone.

So when I took that off, I remember talking to my good friend Amy. I said I’m taking it off my phone. But the funny thing is I’m not tech savvy. So I thought, “Oh my gosh. At some point I might have to get it back on the phone. I’m not entirely sure how I do that.” It was okay. I just took it off.

Angela: You figured it out.

Dena: I figured it out. I thought, “Okay. If I never have it on the phone again, that’s great. That’s fine.” But just that act of taking it off that one device also helped me not look at my laptop too.

Angela: Interesting.

Dena: Yeah. Again, Saturdays for me are sacred, and I refuse to do work. That has to be a day for me. I’ve also had a talk with teachers about not texting me on the weekends. So that was a big thing too. There are still the teachers that would text. Again, I’m at this school. We’ve been friends for ages. It’s okay if it’s a social text, but when it’s work text. So I’ve really had to be firm on that and not answer a text. Or even there’ve been a couple times where I’ve had to just block a couple callers just for the weekend, just for the weekend.

Angela: For sure.

Dena: It’s good. Again, it’s setting those boundaries. I want to be healthy in that way, and I want my staff to be healthy in that way.

Angela: So good.

Dena: I think through example they’re seeing that. Then they come back to work much more revived.

Angela: Right. I want to dissect this just even a little bit further for the listeners out there because what happened with Dena was she was feeling a negative emotion because she was overworking. She had no boundaries between work and personal time.

She was experiencing a negative emotion because she was overworking, but it did not feel comfortable. There was discomfort involved in shifting over to having those boundaries or deciding what they were going to look like and what they were going to be and how she was doing to institute them, which for her meant taking it off her phone. That might not be what works for you, but for her that’s what it was. There was discomfort involved in the transition.

But on the other side of that discomfort, so you were already in negative emotion. You had to experience negative emotion to get to the other side. Now when you’re saying, “I have these boundaries. Saturday is sacred. People don’t text or call.” Now how does it feel to be a school leader when you know I get to say when I work and when I don’t.

Dena: Yeah. It feels super empowering and like I’m in charge of my time. What’s amazing is I do have time to have fun and do all the things that I love to do. I think the other thing too is just leaving work at a certain time. They ended the day. Every single day at the end of the day, I’m out there as the cars come through for gate duty. I love that part of the day. I love the beginning of the day to say hello to everyone and the end saying goodbye. But after being out there a good hour or so I’m usually really hot after being in the sun, and ready to go home.

Then I have my children. My son is at the school, so he’s ready to go home. My daughter takes the bus to my school. So it’s just that boundary that’s supernatural. Like I’m doing this not just for myself but for my children. The work will always be there. I think that’s the big thing I’ve learned with you too.

Angela: Yes, yes.

Dena: It’s always going to be there. I mean it’s just never ending. But instead of feeling overwhelmed by that and feeling like any spare moment has to be spent working, I don’t have that anymore. I know it will get done because I can schedule that in.

Angela: Yes.

Dena: So that feels really good too.

Angela: Yes. You have really done a nice job of believing that you are in control of your time, and that the job doesn’t dictate your time. That you decide what you will prioritize in your day and how you will work that day. And what may get delegated or not get done, right, and being okay with that.

Dena: Yep, exactly.

Angela: Yeah, yeah. So let’s talk about. We were talking about the ripple effect a little bit. What do you think about the long term benefits of this work that you’re doing? I mean yes there’s the coaching. For anybody out there listening who’s interested in coaching, I might be a great coach for you or not. But the self-work that’s involved has a compound benefit, a compound effect. For you, Dena, what does that look like? What do you foresee being the benefit of this work that you’re doing?

Dena: For me personally on a personal level, I feel myself being happier quite honestly. Being able to handle the stress. I just know that if I’m not stressed out, my school’s not stressed out, you know.

Angela: Right.

Dena: So that’s one of the long term. I definitely feel more balanced. I think what I want for all of my teachers at the school is the same. I want them to feel that social emotional wellbeing, you know? Happy to be at the school. Happy doing what they do. So I think the big thing for me is knowing that I’m a school leader, but I’m also a mother. I love being outdoors, love doing yoga. Just all the things. I think that that is I don’t have to be so obsessed with work as I have been for so many years.

Angela: Yeah, yeah.

Dena: So many years. So it feels like a relief. I feel that these past three years have been super challenging. I think what I know is that every year is going to have these challenges. But instead of waiting for the next year to be better, I just know of course there’s going to be challenges. I’ll be able to get through it. I’ll be able to get through it, and it’s not going to eat me alive.

Angela: Right. It’s like no one day can make or break me.

Dena: Right exactly. And you know what? If there’s a hard day, and there’s plenty of those, it’s like okay. That was one day. Tomorrow’s a new day. I really do feel strongly about that now. I don’t have to be dwelling on things. I think that’s the great thing about the coaching too. It’s working through those thoughts and having clean thoughts. I don’t have to dwell on things for a while and worry. I have to go through the process, but then I move through it and then I’m ready for the next.

Angela: Yeah. I feel that coaching has helped me personally be so much more present in this moment today. Because I feel like our brains, they either want to look backwards and over reflect. I mean there’s a reflection process that’s helpful and it can help you move forward but perseverating on that. The brain wants to kind of perseverate on like how I should have done it or what I should have said in hindsight. Or it’s worrying about like all these scary things in the future.

I feel like coaching brings it like, “Well, let’s just talk about right now. Let’s take a deep breath. Where are we right now in this moment? You’re safe. You’re in a safe space physically, emotionally, mentally.” Then we can start talking about what do we want to experience and what do we want to create for our life in this moment.

Because at a deeper level, yes, you’re a school leader, but we’re talking about the quality of life. The quality of the experiences that we have. We can make work be this big horrendous monster overwhelm thing that just constantly eats away at us, and that is the experience of our life. Or we can find ways to be present in that moment, to have that bigger perspective that this is one moment in time, this is one day.

The other thing that I’ve noticed is the scarcity mindset where we’re like always afraid that we’re not going to have enough resources. Whether it’s time or money or the right people in the job or the right support for kids. Like we’re always scrambling to try and kind of hoard our resources. When in fact spending the resources and being intentional with the way that we expend our resources—our time, our money, our material items around us—being intentional with that, that is increasing the quality of our experience of our lives and our leaders. Which then we do that. When we model that, we help other people do the same.

Dena: Yep. It’s work. It’s so work.

Angela: But it’s a different kind of work, right?

Dena: It is a different kind of work. Yep. So the work is you’re thinking about the work. It’s what goes on in my brain. That’s the thing too that we worked through are the thoughts, the thinking. So when I think about my teachers or I think about just other school leaders, it’s so important to figure out what they’re thinking so that they can change their mindset.

Angela: Right, right. Last question. I’ve got to let you go. I could talk to you forever. I really am curious to know your thoughts on what you feel this is worth. When we think about how we spend our time, how we spend our money, how we spend our energy like our focus and attention, and the decisions that we make to spend our resources in all of these ways.

What do you feel is the worth or the value of having invested your time, your money, but also your energy and your focus and your attention on not just like how do I solve all these exterior problems at school? But internally how do I make shifts for myself in order to be the best version of myself as a school leader?

I’m just curious to really hear your thoughts, Dena, on like when I think about—I’ll share an example with you, right? When I think about how my life has changed and how worth coaching has been in my life. When I think about that I spent $6,000 on my life coach training at the life coach school way back in, I don’t remember, 2015 maybe?

What it’s been worth in my life has allowed me to mend relationships with my family members. To actually say yes to marrying my husband. To being able to tolerate saying goodbye to my son when I sent him to college, which I honestly did not think I could manage. I was so distraught about him leaving. To the fear of leaving my job, my great paying job with all the great bennies and insurance and whatever.

Like I kind of did a crazy thing. Like I literally eloped, sold my house, moved to the beach, and dove right into the business with no idea of how to do it. That’s crazy talk. Most people would not take a risk like that, but I believe so deeply in coaching and the value in it. What it’s been worth to my life to create this business and to have a lifestyle that is location independent and flexible, right?  My son came home, I took yesterday off. Did not work. So that’s kind of like…

Dena: Right, right.

Angela: I’m really genuinely like what do you feel it has been worth to you?

Dena: It’s being available for my family. I feel for so many years, probably all through teaching and being a director, I’m distracted. I’ve always got something else on my mind, and I’m not fully present. I think more than anything I feel myself grounded, and I feel that I’m more present with my husband, with my children when I’m at school. That is huge. That is probably the biggest gift right now.

Angela: Yes, that presence is so key. What I love about presence, it’s one of the first things my mentor. I had a coach as a principal, and it was through a program. Which I loved her dearly, and she was so gifted at coaching. She could go off the script and really coach me, and then kind of bring me back to like, “These are the modules we have to get done and blah, blah, blah.” Which that part was not as helpful as the real deal coaching.

What she said to me was, “When you’re at work, be at work. When you’re at home, be at home.” What’s hard about school leadership. When you’re teaching and you have children in front of you, you don’t have the option of thinking about like I’ve got to make this dentist appointment. Or I need to get online and return this Crate and Barrel box or whatever. You’re present when you’re teaching.

You get into the office, there’s a little more gray area for like paying your bills or like making this phone call. It feels like personal and professional get a little muddier. You have to be intentional and make that decision to create that space. But when you are at work when you’re at work and home when you’re at home, you get more done in less time.

Dena: Right, yep. I would definitely say. In fact, it’s so clear.

Angela: It gets so clear, right? Here’s what I have to do.

Dena: Yep. Then it’s time to go home and it’s like, “Oh yep. I got that done. Tomorrow’s a new day.”

Angela: Then when you’re at home, it’s like, “Nope. I am not going to send that last email. I’m not going to craft the, whatever, staff meeting agenda. Because tomorrow’s work will happen tomorrow. Today’s work is done.”

Dena: That is something that I’ve learned through coaching because I did not have that. There was never an off time for me. I found myself sneaking looking at emails and doing work while my husband’s in the other room.

Angela: Yes, and hiding it.

Dena: Hiding it.

Angela: It’s like an addiction. We’re hiding it.

Dena: Yeah. But I don’t feel that that’s necessary. So I feel like I have more fun with my family now and I have more fun with my friends, and that is so important. So I just feel more, like I said, balanced, grounded. I think that that’s what I want for my staff. I want them to feel that as well. It’s possible. I know it’s possible.

Angela: Yes. I keep saying one last thought, but this is the final final. The belief that you can make anything work. That thought we can figure this out. We can find the money. We can find the time. We can create the money. We can create the time. In whatever way. Like any obstacle that comes up for you, when you believe, “I will figure this out. If there’s something I want, there is a path to having it.” Otherwise we wouldn’t desire it.

From the very beginning of you just desiring to have a coach to them believing it was possible through your friend who was helping you say like, “Come on now. Just give her a call.” To like having the coaching. But now what’s happening is like we’re continuing to expand what your brain thinks is possible for you.

Dena: Oh yeah. Anything is possible. I believe that. I firmly believe that.

Angela: Yeah. It’s so much fun. It’s so much fun. So listeners out there. If you’re afraid of the money, afraid of the time, afraid of the investment, afraid of the inability to gather the resources you need for coaching, Dena’s here to tell you it’s possible.

Dena: Do it, yep.

Angela: Do it. We’re having fun.

Dena: It’s the best.

Angela: It is. We’re doing it by having fun and being real and being authentic and talking about the real things that happened at a school.

Dena: Right.

Angela: We don’t have to gloss it over. This isn’t for the media. This is two people on the phone having a real conversation about real things.

Dena: Yep. In real time. I love it.

Angela: Love it. Thank you so much. Look at you.

Dena: Thank you.

Angela: Growing as a public speaker. Being on a podcast.

Dena: Oh my gosh. Yep. Thank you.

Angela: So amazing.

Dena: I did it. I did it.

Angela: You are truly amazing. You did it. It’s truly amazing. I can’t thank you enough. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Dena: Thank you Angela.

Angela: Bye.

Dena: Bye, bye.

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